During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
- Endless Mike: He tries to kill (and possibly succeeds with some) all of the wrestlers ahead of Big Pete just so can defeat him in a match.
Really?! Another nickelodeon sitcom entry?
Chop that item off.
On a sidenote, why do I only hear of teen sitcoms in this topic, and never of Teen Drama?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Re: John Milton (The Devil's Advocate): Given that Post-Rape Taunt Milton gave I think it's safe to conclude that he enjoys doing evil. With more evidence pointing to Milton just being an evil, manipulative angel on Earth than one with a truly cosmic perspective beyond humanity, I suppose possible Omniscient Morality License is a minor issue.
Regarding his attachment to Kevin, I concluded that he only sees his children as tools. He states his motive for making them father the antichrist and rule his company in his stead is because he needs someone to manage his affairs on the ground. Fulfilling his son's desires is merely the path to that goal. As soon as Kevin ruins his plan and they lose their value, he turns his daughter into a withered husk during his fit of rage.
I found this rather peculiar example on DEFCON:
- Complete Monster: YOU. You're nuking the planet to a radioactive hellhole.
That's the first time I've seen the audience/player described as a CM. In this game, loosely based off WarGames, you're commanding a country's strategic nuclear forces and engaging in nuclear warfare with enemy factions. Everyone in the game is doing this (thus no standouts), and the player is not an in-universe character. Even if you're playing a Villain Protagonist in some piece of interactive fiction, depending on the actions taken during the game that might make the character a CM, not you. I think it's completely counter to how this trope is defined.
From V:
- Complete Monster- Anna
That should be on V (2009), but Anna probably disqualifies. She's shown breaking down over her destroyed eggs or children, and weeps as she euthanizes the last of them.
I realized Diana from the old V series is actually a pretty good candidate. She's spearheaded the entire invasion, designed a way to harvest every human, tortures and mindrapes people for fun, tries to nuke Earth out of spite even after she's lost, kills her own superiors to take their place, and is worse than any other Visitor seen, standing out even in her people's own fascist culture. The remake also takes a very different approach to the Visitor's heinousness since they're largely emotionless and guided mostly by logic, while the original series just depicts a fascistic alien culture in which every member is quite cognizant of their actions. Depending on Diana's actions in the weekly series (which I have not seen), I think she fits every criteria.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Diana, absolutely. no care even for her own species. Anna of the 2009 series is a cut.
Devil's Advocate Satan/Milton I'll go keep or now. The DEFCON example is a cut. A player character cannot be a CM like this. If the protagonist is their own entity and commits atrocities in cutscenes or, possibly, Quick Time Events, they can count but I know of no game that meets this standard (Kratos would be a potential keep for one, but he fails the 'no redeeming features' thing)
Now...
Axis In Time: Maybe a keep, but expand
Agent Pendergast: Trusting Ambar to cut
Arthas: Cut. Arthas's agency is all kinds of skewed and flawed. He's different from Deathwing IMO
As I Lay Dying: Cut. Easily. Nasty person, that's it.
Anubis Gates: Horrabin is a good candidate from what I remember.
Adventures of Pinocchio: Sounds like a keep there.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
A game where you're forced to play a totally-unsympathetic character (as opposed to a sympathetic but still loathsome villain protagonist or an optional "pure evil" route) would probably bomb, I'd imagine.
Let me assure you, as a veteran of the 5P process, that you can be wrong here.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Ooh, right, those "rape simulators" and stuff, yiii.
Thankfully not our department.
Anyhow, I agree with cutting these player examples mentioned up there.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I think it's important to note that I think a PC who could count can't just be a nameless, faceless 'you' controlling the armies. They'd need to be an actual character like Tommy Vercetti or Kratos
But this is academic. We haven't had such a keeper yet and we're not likely to.
Some info on Horrabin: Horrabin is a Monster Clown who runs London's underworld. He has an army of brainwashed, monstrous beggars that he disfigures to pull in extra revenue. He also has mass of twisted, once-human ''things'' he keeps imprisoned in his sewer lair (including his own mutilated father), and he uses them to dispose of those in his way and murder who he directs them to. Of the multiple villains in the book, he's easily the nastiest of the lot except Dog-Face Joe, a body swapping werewolf serial killer, and even then Horrabin's probably worse. Horrabin is a servant of The Master, an ancient magician. The Master is mostly hands off for his servants, and his ultimate goal is to restore Egypt to power by crushing Britain, rejuvenating magic at the same time. There's also Doctor Romany and Romanelli. Romany lacks any moral agency (he's created by the Master as Romanelli's duplicate) and Romanelli is nasty, but lacks a lot of Horrabin's cruelties and evil deeds.
edited 1st Nov '13 2:41:46 PM by Lightysnake
Avatar by Leafsnake
Ooh, I've come back and w're talking about Opal, great.
When I wrote that entry, someone, I think it was Footsteps, said that I talked too much about the paradox. He's right, I have to explain weird time shit to actively get across how bad her crimes are, and that can take away from the entry.
As for Johan, I remember Chaotic Queen brought up this argument before, and we did examine love like with Beatrix.
As for Defcon, cut it.
Also, I hope everyone had a fun and safe halloween.
edited 1st Nov '13 3:00:06 PM by DrPsyche
I don't think it's that much an issue. Do you feel it should be rewritten, Psyche?
Avatar by Leafsnake
Eh, maybe, I didn't mention that she had the prison chips in several dozen prisoners, make them go crazy with pain, all to send them into a murdeorus frenzy to kill the wife of her rival, or the people she killed with the paradox logic, which kinda dips into Inferred Holocaust, especially for the humans, but the faerie world does mention numerous casualties. Looking back, I don't think I made it that complicated with the weird time shit.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Random question: Was Cruella De Vil ever discussed?
And don't get me started on the 5P.
EDIT: Nurse Ratched anyone?
edited 1st Nov '13 3:21:32 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Cut the DEFCON example. Though you know what? I'm not as furious at that one as I have been at some of the "YOU" examples. At least I understand where the poster was coming from.
RE: Johan
Johan doesn't love Anna. Johan views Anna as being a part of himself. She's an extension of his own personality. That's why he remembers things that happened to her as having happened to him—it's not him trying to be nice or anything like that, it's that he literally cannot view her as anything other than a piece of him. Hence why he tries to take on her experiences and even tries to become her at various points. That's not love, in fact it's quite the opposite. He's so hellbent on controlling her that he attempts to assume her identity when just wrecking her life didn't work out.
As for the whole letting her kill him thing...Johan's not doing that for Anna. He's doing it for himself. Johan wants to prove that even the very best people—Tenma, Nina/Anna—can be pushed to commit murder if the stakes are high enough. That they can and will gun down an unarmed man, if they can convince themselves it's doing the right thing. In the case of Anna there's the added, and even more twisted motive, of trying to make her more like him. If Anna shoots Johan then she becomes a killer and takes on a little bit of who he is, further tying her two him, and subverting her sense of identity. If Johan could have his way, he'd make her his exact clone and erase any evidence that they were ever two separate people.
I believe she was. I hope you're not planning to propose her.
edited 1st Nov '13 3:12:33 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Well, I'm good putting Opal up then.
As there are no objections to Rivalen Tanthul and several others have expressed support/no objection, I'll do a writeup shortly.
For Monster.Tabletop Games I'm also gonna rewrite Sascha Vykos's entry because that is a serious eyesore on that page. And I'll rewrite Horrabin
Morgenthaler should put up that District 13 example on the Film and I'll also leave it to him/her to take take of John Milton, Diana from V and put the rest of the great writeups up, with the Karl from Chillogy and the other film examples
edited 1st Nov '13 3:14:51 PM by Lightysnake
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Fails Disney baseline heinousness?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Alright then. Now, Nurse Ratched? She may qualify for Literature, and the Film writeup needs details.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Since the general consensus seems to be cut for Mana due to questionable agency, I'll go do that tomorrow if there are no objections.
edited 1st Nov '13 3:27:11 PM by Sterok
Cruella's guilty only of grand theft and attempted destruction of property. Remember, she doesn't know the dogs are sentient.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ah, right. Protagonist-Centered Morality. So not a Complete Monster, just a Jerkass bitch.
edited 1st Nov '13 3:38:30 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
For these reasons, I say Johan's a keeper.
However, I have my own request for delisting: Damon Gant from Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney.
My rationale:
- His misdeeds, murder and blackmail, are not outstandingly heinous by the standards of a story where each chapter features a murderer. The blackmail was nasty, and made a major Woobie of the victim, but it was also a somewhat understandable act of self-preservation under the circumstances.
- He's a Well-Intentioned Extremist, who turned to evil means in the course of trying to convict a particularly accomplished spree-killer.
- While he does awful things to subordinates who pose a threat to him, he otherwise seems to be recognised in-universe as a Benevolent Boss, and he at least suggests that he's generous with money.
- Being Affably Evil isn't usually a defence, but Gant takes it to the point of being an outright Friendly Enemy, suggesting Go-Karting with Bowser, and bearing the protagonist no ill-will when finally defeated.
edited 1st Nov '13 4:13:53 PM by BigglesTh9
Nevermind, someone beat me to the punch. 
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Someone added Phantom to Ace Attorney. Besides needing cleanup, [[quoteblock]]Oh, and did we mention that he's almost completely incapable of feeling normal human emotion, to the degree that Widget has trouble sorting it out?[/quoteblock]Moral agency?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
edited 22nd Feb '14 6:00:23 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts