During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Okay, this has to be one of the most ridiculous entries I've ever seen...
- Complete Monster: Blade dating Rae and Riku's subsequent reaction. It's worse than it sounds.
- To an extent, Blade himself. He's gonna marry the /kick command one day.
- Riku's huge rage on Chao Ball about allegedly hacking in a Brawl match could make him come off as this seeing as he's yelling at a 10 year old boy.
- Supposedly, BUSHNAK.
- Complete Monster: Blade dating Rae and Riku's subsequent reaction. It's worse than it sounds.
edited 24th Oct '13 6:30:02 PM by TVRulezAgain
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
What in the world?!? I don`t even know what that is trying to say! Cut em all I say, none of that sounds even remotely heinous enough.
So what sub sections have been gone over in depth at this point and which ones still need a lot of review?
Anime and Manga and Live Action TV are the ones we need to go over mainly
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Say, I had a thought about Ultimate Marvel monsters. Is it possible that this is another setting where the heroes are too "designated" for anyone to qualify? Think about it. Wolverine and possibly Iron Man are statutory-rapists, Hulk may be a cannibal (some sites seem to conflate Ultimate Hulk and Pappy Banner, so I'm not sure if they're both cannibals or just Pappy Banner), Pietro and Wanda boff and Janet, and apparently the writer, are okay with this, Thor knocked up his own niece (hardly out of order for a mythological character, but still), Captain America is a jingoist and quite possibly a racist, Pym flat-out tortures his wife, and the general public's (ie, the people were supposed to want the above characters to save) opinion on mutants is not "fear and suspicion" but "actively genocidal." Yeah, the villains are worse too, but in this situation can you honestly say you can root for anyone?
edited 24th Oct '13 7:00:47 PM by HamburgerTime
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
It's darker and edgier to the extreme, but it doesn't rise to the level of so bad I feel uncomfortable about qualifying Ultimate Magneto, who exceeds them in every little dose of evil ever. Or Red Skull who's just as bad. Or, heck, Ultimate Darkseid who probably deserves an entry
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Umm, Darkseid?'
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
There is a reason I won't read Ultimate Marvel. That and the fact that even the characters who haven't crossed the Moral Event Horizon are hateable pricks. Seriously, this is a series where Jean Grey cheats on Cyclops with Wolverine, causing Wolverine to try and kill Cyclops, then to retaliate at Wolverine, forces he and Spider-Man—who has done nothing to her—to switch bodies. Leaving a guy she knows to be an ephebolphiliac statuatory rapist alone in a room with Spider-Man's teenage girlfriend, looking like Spider-Man. For the record, yes Wolverine tries to talk MJ into screwing him. She let's him get at least partway. We are then supposed to find it funny when Spider-Man, back in his own body, has no idea what she's referencing when she says "we shouldn't do that again until we're older."
Our heroes ladies and gentlemen. Selfish asshats, mind rapists, vindictive bitches, and lovers of little girls.
@Lighty
You mean Ultimate Thanos or something?
Anyway, I could see keeping somebody like Ultimate!Skull, but I'm not so sure about Ultimate!Magneto (and have been unsure for a long time). The fact that the general public is out to kill all mutants, coupled with the fact that the X-Men are a group of dysfunctional sociopaths really makes me question the heinous standard. If there's a keeper in Ultimate Spiderman I might be cool with that as well, given that Peter's pretty much in-character, but from X-Men or The Ultimates? I dunno. I think HT has a point.
edited 24th Oct '13 7:14:54 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Yeah, sorry, I meant Ultimate Thanos. He's pretty much a Darkseid expy there.
But no, I can't agree with that. Yes, the heroes are dicks. No, none of them come close to killing every living thing on the freaking planet. Magneto kills everyone in his way, mutant and human and causes enormous casualties. He's not sympathetic either: just a supremacist and terrorist. He's partly the reason people hate mutants
May I remove the pathetic Chao Island entry?
Reposting a CM entry from the Worm YMMV page in need of a rewrite.
- Complete Monster: Jack Slash, full stop. The man's spent his life murdering his way across the country, and his personal bodycount has to be in the hundreds at least. That's not to mention everything he leads the Slaughterhouse Nine in doing, like attacking a hospital and targeting the maternity ward first. He eventually embraces his role as the catalyst for the end of the world because he wants to be remembered for generations as one of history's greatest monsters.
The Wanderer
Yeah, Jack Slash is definitely CM-worthy, but that entry needs a bit more meat.
Eating a Vanilluxe will give you frostbite.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
I agree with Ambar on Ultimate Marvel: cut everyone but the Skull. And even that's reluctant, because like the Night Slasher the Skull seems to be less a character and more a hamfisted cramming of every Moral Event Horizon-related trope imaginable into one individual. "Do you hate this guy yet?" Even the 616 Skull, despite being acknowledged as the most loathsome being in the 'verse, has some rhyme and reason to him.
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
I don't know I think there is still some work to do on the Western Animation Page, I don't think I like the fact the Transformers Animated Page talks about how Megatron may be considered a Complete Monster, but really isn't one, that seems like something that could be cut:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Monster/Transformers
Also it might be useful to discuss some of the Direct to Video stuff DC and Marvel have done. The YMMV sections for Superman Doomsday list Toyman and Lex Luthor as Complete Monsters, while the YMMV section for Superman vs. The Elite lists Atomic Skull as one:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/SupermanVsTheElite
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/SupermanDoomsday
Also would listing Red King from the Animated Planet Hulk movie be redundant, because he is the comic book section?
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
The one I have most issue with there is Unicron Trilogy Megatron, as he was quite noble in Armada. Granted, I haven't seen Cybertron, but unless he makes a concentrated effort to invalidate his own good qualities there (like, for instance, Lotso and Darth Krayt did) I think he needs to go.
Cleric of Banjo
Huh, I thought we had discussed (and decided to cut?) Atomic Skull.
He seems like a Generic Doomsday Villain in that he has zero depth and is only there to kick the dog so that the Elite have someone to kill where it seems fairly justified (I guess the Joker was on vacation), before they jump off the slippery slope/show themselves to be pretty horrible people.
And to some degree, I wonder if the presentation of the Atomic Skull's murder would also disqualify him- IIRC despite his constant dog-kicking and moral event horizon crossing, its presented as cruel and unjustified (which granted, mostly has to do with the film supporting Superman's Thou Shalt Not Kill stance).
On the other hand, I could see Luthor and Toyman counting for the Superman: Doomsday film- it sounds like both of them do all of the worst stuff each have ever done in the comics, and since the film is a self-contained work.... Although, I'm not completely sure if it is bad enough for Luthor to have a cure for disease but then withhold it, simply to be a dick.
edited 24th Oct '13 9:45:07 PM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
18252: Ultimate!Skull does seem almost TOO evil, but doesn't mean he's not a CM.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I noticed someone making Monster/Disney rewrites. Here is one for Frollo:
- In The Hunchback Of Notre Dame, Judge Claude Frollo is likely one of the most evil characters the company has ever invented. He is introduced pursuing a young woman on horseback, causing her to tumble to her death. He tries to throw her son down into the well, until the archdeacon calls him out, which causes Frollo to take the boy in keeping him under strict rule. While he initially seems to have to have fallen in love with a young gypsy girl Esmeralda, until she rejects him, he decides she must burn in hell. Taking his anger out on all gypsies, Frollo burns down an entire windmill for harbouring them. After that Frollo tries to have a massive section of the city burned so he can kill as many as possible.
edited 25th Oct '13 4:36:49 AM by randomtroper89
Yes. That's why I can't, in good conscience, vote to cut any of our current Ultimate Marvel monsters.
edited 25th Oct '13 7:46:24 AM by VeryMelon
I don`t know if I can say that I root for the Ultimate Marvel heroes but I think the villains are clearly worse. Statutory rape, racism, and incest are pretty bad but aren`t in the same league as genocide and mass murder.
yeah, I get where Ambar's coming from but we have plenty of complete monsters from Garth Ennis comics like The Boys, and Punisher.
The heroes being unsympathetic does not mean the villains aren't complete monsters.
Also, Pietro and Wanda's whole twincest, creepy as it was...that doesn't strike me as the worst thing given they're consenting adults.
edited 25th Oct '13 9:14:20 AM by Lightysnake
- Complete Monster: The unnamed braggart at the beginning of Church & State who spills ale on Cerebus' memoirs. If he actually did what he claimed to have done, he's one of the most evil characters in the series. Even if he didn't really do those things, the fact that he's bragging about it says a lot of sick things about him. Thankfully Cerebus gives him some Disproportionate Retribution.
Hi
Sandbox.Monster Video Games And Visual Novels has replaced Monster.Video Games and Monster.Visual Novels, and the single pages have been redirected to the combined page. Someone said that some examples needed to be added; are their writeups ready to be submitted to the locked pages thread?
But add the Mephiles entry and Eggman Nega entry to the Sandbox page.