During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
To Jackal
Goku Black
jackal
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to Jackal. Will he go anywhere else besides the franchise page, like Other Media under "Other", or nah?
EDIT: I found it.
Edited by ACW on Mar 15th 2019 at 6:10:30 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Maybe we can screenshot some of this and get a pic togther.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Speaking of which, https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1551907739006040900&page=1#6 needs more votes.
EDIT: Actually, I think Jackal can just go to the franchise page.
Also, this is at least the 3rd CM named Jackal, after Fist of the North Star and Fairy Tail.
Also, Black Mask will be on hold until it's updated, while I aim to create a Goosebumps page next week (I'm taking off Thursday and Friday).
Edited by ACW on Mar 15th 2019 at 7:07:08 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
What about Jakal from Gargoyles?
Yeah, main page would work, unless you want to put him on the Japan Animator Expo 's YMMV page.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm, I'll put it there too.
Forgot about that one.
So's everyone okay with this
◊ image of Mongul? (No, I don't know why or how he speaks the logo ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
)
Edited by ACW on Mar 15th 2019 at 8:46:48 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Jackal (and now I have that Family Guy Pictionary scene stuck in my head).
You know, I feel like we keep getting sidetracked in regards to the quotes discussion.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to the Mongul image.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Wild Child
Jackal.
Lizzid people!
So last night and earlier today I finished reading through a line of comic books based on the movie Nightbreed. For those who don't know it's a film by Clive Barker based on his book Cabal in which a man named Boone finds himself thrown into a world full off odd monsters dubbed the Nightbreed after unwittingly getting involved with a Serial Killer and ultimately becomes their messianic leader as his girlfriend Lori gets thrown into the mix.
It had two short lived series, ad a graphic novel, both unrelated story wise; there's the Epic Comics version which I could never find; there's the graphic novel crossover with Hellraiser where the villain has a redeeming quality despite reaching high into the heinous factor (and the second half dipping a bit into Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy in my opinion).
Then you've got the short run BOOM comics that was released back in 2014, that is connected to and promotes the Directors Cut of the film. This line serves as both a sequel and a prequel to the movie with the first half focusing on the backstories of it's characters and the second half continues where the Directors Cut left off. It also features one of the most odd examples of a Face–Heel Turn and Adaptational Villainy I've ever seen, in the form of Ashberry.
Who is he ? What does he do ?
Ashberry is in the film, an alcoholic priest who keeps a sense of piety despite his shaky belief in God (in the film he doesn't even believe in Satan). He feels empathy towards the Nightbreed when he sees them being subjected to persecution and even pledges allegiance to their god Baphomet, only to get scarred by him at which point he pulls Heel and declares his intent on wiping out the Nightbreed as revenge in a Sequel Hook that doesn't really get a follow up. In the (considered non canon) theatrical cut he resurrects Decker as a Nightbreed as part of his new crusade, but this never happens in the Directors Cut which these comics follow. In the directors cut, he kills the films secondary antagonist Eigerman (who I also considered talking about) to kickstart his new crusade.
So yeah, Ashberry doesn't really have a chance in Hell of counting in the film even with his Face–Heel Turn. BOOM Comics gives us a different beast all together.
What does he do ?
So when we see him in the film, we see him in the drunk tank, which gives us the impression he's just a guy with a drinking problem but that's just the tip of the iceberg. His story starts in the swinging sixties when everyone was practicing free love; Ashberry, his mother and their congregation plan to witness to the hippies and everyone living for sex, drugs and rock and roll. Ashberry is assigned to preach on the streets to the "sexual degenerates" (I should note this comic series does not shy away from graphic nudity or sex, I almost considered it a hentai comic). He meets a free spirited hippie girl who easily seduces him, but right as they start to have sex, Ashberry strangles her to death.
Afterwards, Ashberry struggles to come to terms with his temptations and decides it is God's calling for him to kill sinners and have their souls cast into Hell. So begins a decades long career of stalking those he perceives as sexual sinners and killing them, often by fooling them into fake sexual encounters. His usual pickings being male and female prostitutes and other hookups. He also kills at least one pimp. Over time he feels shaken and abandoned by God because the more sinners he keeps on killing, and they don't stop coming. So he takes up a drinking habit. By the time of the 90's, shortly before the film, Ashberry overhears a couple of drunkards talking about monsters and gets into a fight with them. Ashberry is subsequently arrested for assault and a DUI. This leads to his role in the film were he's recruited into the attempt to wipe out the Nightbreed because the people wanted God on their side.
After the film, and Ashberry's subsequent Face–Heel Turn, Ashberry has since rounded up the Berserkers (especially dangerous monsters that the Nightbreed have locked away) as part of his crusade. He also carries around Decker's severed head as something to talk too his plans about, before tossing his head in a garbage bin because he started to stink. Ashberry kept Decker's mask and eventually wears it himself as he goes after Boone and Lori (both of them have become leaders of the Nightbreed). Ashberry sets the Berserkers loose on Boone, which disembowels but ultimately doesn't kill him. Ashberry starts a fight with Lori from her apartment to the streets before a car crashes into Ashberry.
Despite this Ashberry survives and Boone spends eight months in recovery in the Nightbreed's new home. Lori has since given birth to Boone's son, and Ashberry is on the move once again, planning to suicide bomb the new home and is tormented by visons of Baphomet. When he shows up, Ashberry takes Peloquin at knife point and threatens to decapitate him. Before Ashberry can set the bombs off, Boone draws out the power of Baphomet which proceeds to grow out of Ashberry's body - either slowly killing Ashberry or putting him in an And I Must Scream state considering Ashberry himself is still conscious despite his body being mutilated as Baphomet stretches them out.
Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse ?
Now Ashberry in the film ? He's not that bad a guy even if his Face–Heel Turn is rather abrupt. Going by both cuts you get the idea that he is an actual man of God who realizes the Nightbreed are trying to live in peace and there's women and children among them. He tries to put a stop at the attempted genocide before he's pushed aside and seen giving a fallen Nightbreed a Due to the Dead. Then when he pledges allegiances to Baphomet, the latter rejects him and scars him thus inciting a sudden genocidal hatred for the breed.
Then these comics explore more of him and we find out he's actual criminal rapsheet is a little more serious than being a drunk. He does have a past in which he was raised by a religious zealot who clearly sheltered him. He however wasn't raised to be the murderer he became, just a run of the mill preacher - he came to the conclusion that he's destined to kill for God on his own. This was brought about by a sexual encounter with a hippie woman he felt ashamed of. Ever since he got it into his head that it was his duty to kill sinners and send them to Hell.
They mention a bit that he has a piece of Baphomet in him after their encounter, but Baphomet has literally no influence on the guy beyond Ashberry seeing manifestations of him; they are not insinuating that Baphomet is possessing him and if they were it wouldn't make any sense since Baphomet wants to protect his people and Ashberry wants to wipe them out. As far as the possibility of Ashberry being insane, he does talk to Decker's severed head, but not in the way that implies he's hearing voices or anything, Ashberry knows Decker is dead, it's about the same as a kid talking to a teddy bear or something (he does get a funny moment where he throws Decker's head in a bin because it started to stink).
It should be noted that Decker's initial standards against persecuting the Nightbreed is because of women and children being among them; but not only does he now want to wipe them out, he has and tried to kill women, but tries to suicide bomb a group that has a child and a baby with them.
Heinous Standard
He's got Decker to compete with who is a serial family murderer, and a genocidal maniac towards the Nightbreed. There's also Captain Eigerman, who attempts to carry out a genocide against the breed. Despite his initial objections, Ashberry develops the same genocidal hatred for the Nightbreed, but he's also established here to be a serial killer zealot who murdered prostitutes and similar hookups in the past. He's a Serial Killer like Decker, but unlike the former who targets families, Ashberry goes after those he sees as sinners, especially sexual sinners. As far as Decker's Would Hurt a Child moments, Ashberry also tries to kill a group containing at least one kid and a baby, so there's that.
Although there are a few rapists that show up in the comic, concerning the characrer Ludd's biological father, and Boone's father, and a man who molested Boone while he was in the foster system.
Edited by Beast on Mar 15th 2019 at 1:36:17 PM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Ashberry.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
to Ashberry
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ashberry seems a yes (how the hell does Boone survive getting DISEMBOWELED???). Will Eigerman be getting effortposted, or Comic!Decker?
Also, slight problem at Complete Monster: Vandal Savage's image is from New 52, but New 52 Vandal hasn't been confirmed a CM yet.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Comic!Decker is unlikely to be EP'd since he's the same character as the movie and is dead.
I might do one on Eigerman.
Edited by Beast on Mar 15th 2019 at 2:42:33 PM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Goku Black
Ashberry
@acw: I said I'd do that ep on Vandal. Give me a few days to read all of his stuff. I'd say with his rapsheet and final acts, he'd count pretty easily.
Edited by miraculous on Mar 15th 2019 at 12:47:46 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ashberry.
Oh, Grimmel's been discussed? Must have been during my Hobo Pizza Style Beast Break AKA When I was playing Devil May Cry 5. What happened with Grimmel? I'm a no myself due to Drago being much worse.
Ashberry
Lizzid people!
Ultimately was downvoted. Though I'd advise that you look it up for yourself. It's already a closed case.
Edited by AustinDR on Mar 15th 2019 at 1:21:41 AM
