Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

@ACW: Rather late, but for Inferno, he.....I GUESS got locked up at the end with Iron Klaw. Sadly, seeing as he WAS basically turned into a mookish henchmen, not much focus was put on his defeat.

As for Tyler, last I saw him, he turned iver a new leaf when his mother Sharyinformed him of what his father REALLY though it him as a child, and Shary either murdered Tyler afterwards, or faked his death for them to go live somewhere, both out of an attempt at repentance on her part for letti g her husband do to Tyler what he did.

to Vance Wingfield, Elizabeth Bathory, and Golobulus (silly name for a heinous villain).

With all the G.I. Joe proposals, I kind of wonder if any version of Serpentor might qualify. The original version is arguably Made of Evil, but I can't help but be curious. Side note: I always liked his catch-phrase ("This, I command!").

My favourite CM proposals of my own would have to be Father Comstock (partly because BioShock Infinite is one of the best video games I've ever played, maybe even my all-time favourite), Zoom, and Matthias Pavayne, if only because I'm proud of proposing a monster from the Buffyverse.

Incidentally, two days ago was the 20th anniversary of the premiere of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the series which, among other great accomplishments, inspired the creation of TV Tropes.

My favorite proposals? HABIT first and foremost, with Heinrich Himmler a close second.

"I was a man... Yes, oh yes... I was a man..."

I'll give Golobulus a yes. He'd never really struck me as a CM — just a particularly nasty cartoon baddie — but having his crimes refreshed to me make me confident enough to say "yes." Certainly bad enough for the show he appears in and what he does to that continuity's Commander is somehow both hilarious and utterly terrifying.

to Golobulus.

Golobulus

After conversing with Melon over PM, here's what I have to say on Ardyn that Melon didn't touch on in his excellent EP

Ardyn is, quite easily, one of, if not the most singularly evil and heinous villains I have seen in the Final Fantasy series. Unlike most, he's a twisted, evil monster and absolutely relishes it. The big point of contention is his backstory, where he was denied ascension by the Astrals due to the corruption he incurred.

A few things I wanted to say about this: point 1, is that Ardyn himself doesn't really seem to be much stock in it as the person he has become. Ardyn is needlessly cruel and sadistic to levels that have nothing to do with his excuse. Even accepting he was screwed over by the people of Lucis, Ardyn is harming, killing and daemonizing people thousands of years later...and he's manipulated this to destroy entire other nations, like Tenebrae and Altissia which were both completely innocent of any wrong ever done to him. And even Nifleheim, a nation that had welcomed him with open arms, given him a high-ranking position in the government and has never really done him any harm whatsoever. In the latter instance, while Emperor Aldercapt was a bastard who got what he deserved, Ardyn annihilates the entire country, turning everyone into Daemons or just murdering them.

The other issues are...Ardyn himself doesn't seem much affected by what happened any more. He is fully cognizant of his own actions. He fully acknowledges himself as a 'true monster' and...there's a curious line of dialogue that paints his excuse in a more dubious light: Bahamut, the leader of the Astrals calls Ardyn the Usurper, indicating he might not be as innocent a party as he claimed to Noctis.

The final issue is...Ardyn gets two chances to both rest and accept peace or sympathy from others. When he knives Lunafreya, she expresses sympathy for him, and makes a mention about him finding peace, while attempting to use her powers on him. Ardyn's response is, for the first time in game, to lose his mask of amusement and amusement, show cold fury, smack her in the face and coldly remark "How sweet. But please, Lady Lunafreya...you first!" Before leaving her to slowly bleed out, which results in the annihilation of Altissia.

The final bit...after he's defeated by Noctis, Noct tells Ardyn to, essentially, find peace and 'close your eyes forevermore"...in this end, Ardyn has gotten what he's wanted: Noctis will have to sacrifice his life to purge the Starscourge, Ardyn is finally allowed entry into the afterlife...

BUT? Ardyn is waiting for Noctis in the Beyond to strike him down and prevent him from eliminating the Starscourge and saving the world. There is absolutely no reason for this except petty spite and cruelty. Ardyn has gotten everything he could want: Lucis is devastated, the line of kings and the Crystal are gone. He can finally know peace in the afterlife...but he's still willing to destroy Noctis's soul just to fuck the world over one last time and ensure it's consumed by daemons with every living thing succumbing to darkness, to destroy a world Ardyn was no longer part of and has no further connection to.

Ardyn's excuse is genuinely something very hard to overcome, but Ardyn is so cruel, spiteful, petty and the scope of his actions so massively exceed the scope of any excuse offered, in addition to the times he outright rejects any attempts at redemption, peace and sympathy when it was offered to him. He is not portrayed as a victim in game, but as a monster. Every time he's presented with a choice, he repeatedly chooses the most evil thing he can do in any situation and far from being a victim, he utterly glories in the atrocities he commits far beyond simple vengeance against one kingdom, to the point he uses his own death as one final attempt to prevent the world being saved. It's not even something he's unaware of, as he specifically boasts of how he 'twisted' the world in the final battle.

While he may have been a good man once (And we have two conflicting accounts of this), the person he's become has done everything he can to utterly invalidate that excuse.

The last point...despite his own daemonification? Ardyn does this to others on an industrial scale. The one who taught Nifleheim about turning others into daemons? Ardyn. The one who turns Lunafreya's brother into a daemon kept alive and wracked with unspeakable agony to the point putting him down is a mercy kill? Ardyn. All for his own sick amusement. Even after he knows the consequences of what this can do to your soul firsthand.

edited 13th Mar '17 9:54:55 PM by Lightysnake

Yeah, Lighty's said about all I have to think on the matter. Any sympathy Ardyn could have is thoroughly wiped out by the extreme and needlessly petty lengths Ardyn goes in retribution, and the fact he goes out of his way to be as evil as possible even in ways that contradict or ignore his excuse entirely only solidifies that. Ultimately, I'm going to have to switch to saying Ardyn is a keeper.

edited 13th Mar '17 10:17:20 PM by Scraggle

Having finished the story recently myself, I'm inclined to agree with Lighty here. Ardyn's excuse is bad, yes, and it does a sufficient job of explaining why he turned evil, BUT it's also a case where what he does far surpasses whatever this excuse could justify.

Ardyn is just LOVING being the sadistic prick he is, and inflicts the same fate, sometimes even worse, onto those complete innocent of any crimes against him. By the present, Ardyn is just so caught up in how much he enjoys hueting others that he has completely forsaken and forgotten whatever possible good qualities he may have once possessed.

He takes this potentially tragic past, and just keep. Stomping. It. Into the dirt until the only thing that is left is "This is how his Start of Darkness began, but now? It's of no concern or motive to Ardyn. He has fully embraced this wicked side of hinself, and has zero intentions of ever turning back."

In conclusion, what he does to Noctis in the end is the dealbreaker for me. MAYBE, even after all he had, he could've gotten some form of Alas, Poor Villain death, or SOMETHING. But no, Ardyn goes down swinging and wastes his potentially peaceful afterife just to screw over Noctis and the real world one final time for no reason other than his own cruelty.

If there was a re-proposal for him, I would toss my hat into the Keep pile this time around, I believe.

edited 13th Mar '17 10:07:01 PM by Ravok

I should also note that when Noctis destroys him for good in the afterlife...Ardyn isn't pleased, satisfied or relieved. He's furious at it and doesn't "go gentle into the night" so to speak.

Toffee. I'd say he counts for this. (assuming the entry isn't added yet)

Eclipsa. And only because I don't think we are getting the whole story on her yet.Star Vs. has established Written by the Winners is in effect for Mewni's history. So I think we should wait until we see her before considering this. A Wait and See approach if you will.

As for Ardyn, I'd say but I should also mention that there is another related villain in this. Ifrit, (with this being the 2nd consecutive case of Adaptational Villainy) seems to had been The Man Behind the Man. He has a clear anti-human bias and wants to destroy Eos, having betrayed the other Astrals and is implied to had created the Starscourge in the first place (thus tying him to Ardyn's origins). Oh and did I mention that he went to war against the other Astrals because they didn't share his "fuck humanity" ideology?

Yeah I think he needs to be considered at least as related to Ardyn's case.

My opinion on Toffee...wait and see for right now. Toffee is bad but his past is so mysterious, there is going to be more revealed. Eclipsa...obviously we can't know near enough..

Actually, that's another point against Ardyn, now that I think about it...Ifrit is an Astral who hates humanity and is implied to be responsible for the Starscourge and thus, Ardyn's problems to begin with, Ardyn's problems at working with the guy to fuck the world over? Nil. None. Nada. He just happily sics Ifrit on you. Even though IFRIT is far more responsible for his problems than any Lucian king.

Unfortunately...Ifrit doesn't have enough character or screentime to count, though.

edited 13th Mar '17 10:11:21 PM by Lightysnake

Toffee and Eclipsa are both wait-and-sees. The latter especially as we barely know anything about her.

I oppose Ifrit for two reasons: Offscreen Villainy, for one.

The other? If you dig into the backround lore, including the super secret Pitios dungeon, Ifrit actually has sympathetic origins. Long story short, he loved Eos, Goddess of the Dawn, who did something to annoy the other Astrals (potentially bearing the child[ren] of a human) so they lovked her in the underworld until she died. Ifrit wants revenge for this, and maybe humanity also had a hand in Eos' fate. Most of this is Dark Souls level speculation, I should add, but I am confident that Ifrit has a small amount of sympathy.

I might be inclined to vote for Ardyn in the future, but I'm still 51% against his inclusion. Oh, and there's a theory going about Ardyn and his brother were Eos' children and that's why Ifrit helps Ardyn but that's such a fan theory I wouldn't include that in any serious EP.

edited 13th Mar '17 11:00:47 PM by PolarPhantom

Well, we can discuss that....but honestly, working with Ifrit killed any niggling doubts I had when Ifrit is more responsible for Ardyn's issues. All out of spite and sadism

edited 13th Mar '17 11:00:11 PM by Lightysnake

I wasn't proposing either candidate. I explicitly said that they were on my wait and see list. Nothing more, nothing less.

I can't remember how (or if) I originally voted on Ardyn Izunia, but I'm now leaning towards a unless there's something I'm missing. The fact that he apparently got everything he wanted in the end, yet still went out of his way to be evil, seems like it pretty clearly invalidates his original sympathetic backstory.

Absolute yes to Ardyn. I find it very amusing that that nasty, sadistic asshole is voiced by the same guy who voices freaking Reinhardt from Overwatch, aka one of the most lovable, cuddly gentle Giants in all of fiction. I mean yeah, that's the power of acting! But still.

Wow wow, hold the brakes there. It's too early to start voting on Star vs The Forces of Evil candidates.

Golobulus.
Where was the original Ardyn EP? Ah, here it is.

edited 14th Mar '17 3:18:00 AM by ACW

@Lightysnake On the subject of Complete Monsters with affection for someone else, I'll agree that in Light's case, he didn't care about his family as much as he let on, but I'm less sure in cases like the entrees for Breaking Bad.

The Salamanca Twins in Season 2 are ruthless killers, but they clearly value family. They're totally loyal to their grandfather, and are out to avenge their cousin, Tuco's death.

Jack Welker in Season 5 cares about his nephew Todd to get in a couple Pet the Dog moments. He steals most of Walt's money, but lets him keep one barrel of about $12 million because Todd respects Walt. He's ready to retire from dealing meth after making off with Walt's millions, but when he finds out Todd has a crush on Lydia, who they made the meth for, he gives the go-ahead to keep the business going.

I'll concede these actions or feelings get in the way of them doing evil things, and even the results of these feelings and actions aren't exactly "good", but it shows the characters did care about others besides themselves. They had personal rules they followed, things that mattered beyond their own sadism.

Or does it not count as good characteristics if the affection is the result of Villainous Friendship, since they aren't doing anything good for anyone who isn't on their own side?

I wasn't. I was giving a summary of what we're dealing with thus far.

Well the never again list establishes that Bellatrix's love for Voldemort and Volgin's love for Raikov don't count though some would disagree...

Actually, that makes me wonder whether they DO count...As for , I can't speak on Volgin, but that's only Film!Bellatrix anyway I believe. I don't remember that in the books.

Anywho, since I'm snowed in, I'll try to do Belial today.

Thoughts on that image of Simone?

Another actor with multiple CMs is Troy Baker: Kagan (Bloodrayne 2), Van Kleiss (Generator Rex), Joker, Shinnok in MKX...

edited 14th Mar '17 4:32:03 AM by ACW

Well that's quite the counter argument Lighty. I never considered these points myself because of my own interpretation of the lore and story at the time. I'm actually willing to switch my down vote to a yes vote.