Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

If someone is a fallen hero, the person has a Freudian Excuse. How can a CM have one?

A CM must have an adequate and proportionate Freudian Excuse. 'I want to commit genocide against these people because some of them teased me when I was a kid', or 'To compensate for my inferiority complex, I will start World War IV by nuking a city', for instance, don't quite cover it.

If it's wholly inadequate to excuse their actions, and their actions are so utterly atrocious as to outweigh it.

Griffith sacrifices his loyal men to be devoured and tortured by demons, and condemned to hell to boot. He then proceeds to brutally rape his former most loyal second in command, in front of his former best friends, fully knowing that the two are in love, with the added benefit of corrupting their unborn child. Then he uses that child to come back in the world, coldly informs said former best friend he's not sorry, and proceeds to take control of the kingdoms of earth and fuse the mundane world to the supernatural (which in the world of Berserk is not a good thing. At all).

Did Griffith suffer horribly? Yes. Was he once a good person? Debatable, as even at his nicest, he was a cold blooded narcissist who'd sacrifice anyone for his dreams. His actions after the Eclipse are so repugnant, evil and atrocious that it lands him here because there is no excuse that can begin to cover what he does without a dash of remorse.

I don't get why some people think a Complete Monster has to be a Flat Character, frankly. There can be a valid explanation for why one is evil. It just doesn't have to excuse the evil they do or make them sympathetic. Orochimaru is another example. He was driven to seek immortality in hopes of seeing his deceased parents again, and kept sliding further and further into darkness. By the time the series begins, it's pointed out he doesn't even really remember why he started out, so his excuse has no bearing. Or take Tobi, who admits he doesn't really care about his own Freudian Excuse anymore.

Or Sosuke Aizen, because "I was lonely as a kid" doesn't begin to excuse the shit he does.

edited 5th Jan '13 2:07:31 PM by Lightysnake

It also must be proportionate to the story. Loki's backstory in the Marvel Cinematic Universe basically amounts to "I have an inferiority complex so I'm gonna destroy New York", but Loki has an inferiority complex because of the actions of his father in adopting him for purely political reasons (and then growing to care for him), and constantly being put in his brother's shadow by both fellow gods and the rest of humanity. He doesn't count as a CM because that inferiority complex is so unbelievably overwhelming to his character.

edited 5th Jan '13 2:02:49 PM by LargoQuagmire

Another example of a Fallen Hero who wouldn't be a CM (especially since he's been talked about here before) is Sephiroth.

His past shows he was a nice person and he's a fairly decent guy up until he goes insane. While he's not necessarily sympathetic and he crossed the Moral Event Horizon many times, his excuse still holds water.

Tobi's too far gone from what I know.

Another example of a (arguably) Fallen Hero that would count as a monster is Master Xehanort. He could have easily chose not to commit the deeds he did, but by the beginning of BBS, his excuse doesn't hold water. (Wanting to escape an island isn't even a good excuse to begin with.)

edited 5th Jan '13 2:15:46 PM by Klavice

Now comes my writeup of a fallen hero who I believe is a clear example of a CM through character development. From Star Wars Legacy

Let's give it up for Darth Krayt, everyone.

Who Is He?

Darth Krayt is the Dark Lord of the Sith. The ruler and founder of the One Sith order, dedicated to seeing the ith Order itself as the thing to be loyal to, with Krayt as its personification. At the series start, Krayt has the Jedi destroyed and quickly takes over the Empire, declaring himself the Galactic Emperor before turning his attention to putting down the rebellions of true Emperor Roan Fel, the Jedi and the Galactic Alliance, seeking Sith domination of the galaxy.

Krayt is also the future incarnation of a once heroic Jedi named A'Sharad Hett, who fell to the Dark Side after the Clone Wars. after his capture by the Yuuzhan Vong, A'Sharad embraced the vision of the One Sith and escaped to the Sith world of Korriban to plan out Sith domination.

What has he done?

Krayt...has a pretty impressive rap sheet for Sith. He was the one who sabotaged the repair of entire planets, condemning their residents to real painful ends, all so he could pin it on the alien Yuuzhan Vong and use it as an excuse to attack the Jedi. In the series proper, he keeps bounties on Jedi, and has them tortured horribly when they're caught. Krayt makes it his mission to impose brutal order on the galaxy, and any rebellion is met with violent suppression. Initially A'Sharad himself had good intentions,but after so long, that's been perverted. He's no longer the well meaning A'Sharad Hett, but a brutal tyrant.

The kicker comes when a helpless Jedi informs Krayt he pities the man Krayt was once. Krayt' response is to slice him in half without a twinge of remorse, proclaiming he has no pity. His ultimate action of evil is after a single Mon Calimari is captured helping in the rebellion against him. Krayt chooses the perfectly logical and sane consequence of ordering ten percent of the entire species to be exterminated, effective immediately, with the rest rounded up into work camps until extermination.

After a period of time, Krayt decides he was wrong about the whole order thing. No, what the Galaxy really needs is experience death and rebirth. He also has his chief scientist develop a plague to kill everything on Korriban, except the Sith who are immune to it.

Does he have any redeeming features or a Freudian Excuse?

this is where that character development comes in. A'Sharad and Krayt are so different as to be two different people. After Krayt returns from...hiatus, great pains are taken to show that he no longer has the vaguest connection to the good person he once was. his good intentions of 'the Galaxy needs order' were replaced by 'I am going to erect a fascist dictatorship. You stand against me, I'll kill your entire species!' midway through Legacy,and by the end, he's become a flat out Omnicidal Maniac.

he does also, at first, have a Villainous Friendship with The Dragon Darth Wyyrlok. This doesn't last at all, and Krayt kills Wyyrlok later without a twinge of remorse.

Omnicidal Maniac? That is not a Complete Monster; this is more of a Generic Doomsday Villain.

edited 5th Jan '13 4:24:07 PM by Krystoff

Uh, no. We see the evolution of Krayt's views. He's a rounded character who just so happens to be a Complete Monster at the end of significant character development as he sheds any redeeming trait.

A Generic Doomsday Villain is jut "I want to do this because I'M EVIL! No explanation!" Krayt gradually becomes convinced the universe needs to experience death.

Someone who decides that the universe needs to be destroyed is an Omnicidal Maniac (or sometimes a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, but not all Omnicidal Maniacs are Complete Monsters.

edited 5th Jan '13 5:10:33 PM by Fighteer

My point there is no rule stating an Omnicidal Maniac cannot be a Complete Monster if they are written that way, as I'm saying Krayt is. Krystoff said flat out an Omnicidal maniac is by definition incapable of being a CM

edited 5th Jan '13 5:13:46 PM by Lightysnake

Anyone else want to vote on the Inuyasha examples?

Here's one for Naraku

What is he?

A half demon who was born from the combined souls of thousands of demons fused with the spirit a bandit named Onigumo and is also the Big Bad. Onigumo was a very cruel person when he was alive, but upon becoming Naraku he really crosses into monster territory.

What does he do?

He is responsible for nearly killing Kikyo in the guise of Inuyasha to obtain the sacred jewel for himself and also to turn them against each other. Kikyo pinned Inuyasha to a tree, and died as a result of the injuries influcted by Naraku. Then, he really starts Jumping Off the Slippery Slope. He disguised himself as a woman to trick Miroku's grandfather because he was a Handsome Lech and cursed his right hand (and the right hand of his descendants) with a black hole type curse called the Wind Tunnel which would eventually pull the victim into an endless void. Later, he brainwashes Sango's brother and forces him to fight her, kills many of Koga's tribe, revives a band of seven serial killers, kills off his own offspring, mind rapes the group on a regular basis, kills the undead Kikyo AGAIN, and does everything in his power to ensure his enemies will meet a gruesomely painful death. While he doesn't kill any of the main characters (aside from Kikyo), he makes their lives a living hell on a regular basis. Naraku ironically means "hell" in Japanese which is approproate for such an ireedeemable monster.

Does he have a Freudian Excuse for his actions?

Nope. Zero. Zilch. Zada. His feelings towards Kikyo are more of a "this woman can get me the jewel" than actual love and he offs his own minions just to show he has no morals. His actions are also played seriously and he's even reviled by other demons. He's that bad.

Goshinki is his most sadistic minion who kills an entire village except the kids and taunts the hero about it in front of him. Hakudoshi is a bloodthirsty serial killer who wants to betray Naraku. But I don't think either of those two count mainly because Naraku goes above and beyond, these two don't really.

edited 5th Jan '13 5:15:43 PM by Klavice

That's actually untrue on Naraku. His feelings towards Kikyo are genuine love. however, this only serves to highlight how evil he is as he seeks to get rid of them as he feels such a thing limits him, and eventually succeeds in purging them.

And even though Naraku loved Kikyo, didn't stop him from killing her what, twice? Three times? I lost count in how many times Kikyo died/nearly died directly or indirectly by Naraku's hands.

Yeah, the problematic statement is "all Omnicidal Maniacs are disqualified from being Complete Monsters because they're Generic Doomsday Villains", not "all Complete Monsters are Omnicidal Maniacs".

Although said, I'm inclined to vote against Darth Krayt, for reasons I'll elaborate on when I have more time.

No problem. I look forward to discussing it with you.

I'd vote yes on Naraku as well to be a CM - whether or not he loves Kikyo is debatable, and oftentimes treats her lower than dirt, murdering her multiple times and using her to find the jewel and little else.

edited 5th Jan '13 7:30:21 PM by LargoQuagmire

I'm throwing in my vote for Darth Krayt.

@6441: Trigon and Nihilus:

• Based on that I’d vote for Trigon’s inclusion.
• However, I don’t think Nihilus counts. Looking at Darth Nihilus’s background, I still can’t help but question his moral agency. His hunger is literally all-consuming and has laid waste to his body to the point where he’s a spirit encased in a mask and armor. His mere presence unconsciously has him drawing off of others life. Looking at his circumstances, what other life could Nihilus have? He either has to eat and kill others or feel like he’s starving forever. Hating life seems understandable for him because every other living being has a life he can never have. His actions may seem sadistic but the player is incapable of understanding a word he says. Without knowing what he’s saying or thinking, I can’t judge his motives other than hunger. His very nature seems so alien now I don’t think I can judge him by human standards at all. He seems more of a literal monster than a regular person. Also his backstory in the Mandalorian Wars has him losing his family, friends, and will to live before having these powers unwillingly thrust on him, which makes him sound like a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds. So, I vote no for Nihilus.

@6443: With Odion, since it sounds like his pain over others living doesn’t sound all-consuming, and his murders seem the equivalent of taking a drug for a brief high, I’m more open to his inclusion. As you stated, he’s still a functional human being, or whatever he is, and he is not mad to the point of incomprehensibility. Unless there’s more info coming, I’m tentatively going to vote yes.

@6445: Are there any specific myths that feature Lamasthu doing these heinous acts?

@6479: For the Hellblazer examples:

• The Family Man: I vote for his inclusion. Murdering happy families and children sounds heinous enough.
• Joshua Wright: I’d like to hear more of his crimes. While what he did to Isabelle is horrific, and, as you said, is probably his “crowning achievement”, I’d still like to know who else he’s hurt and how to get a sense of scale for his evil.
• The First: Yeah, he sounds heinous enough, I’ll vote to keep.

@6487: Based on the evidence provided, I’ll vote yes to include both film versions of Jin-E Udo and Kanryu Takeda.

@6494: Re: Inuyasha examples:

• Naraku: He sounds like the worst person in the series, and his “love” for Kikiyo sounds hollow if he’s willing to kill her anyway, or literally remove his good qualities because they stand in his way. Barring any forthcoming information, I’d say keep. Dear god does his entry need to be rewritten though.
• Akago: Sounds like he fails the heinous standard by a lot if he just tries to force a good guy to make a Face–Heel Turn, and “hurts peoples’ feelings.” Cut.
• Hakudoshi: I’d like to know more about what he does and how much independence he has from Naraku before casting a vote.
• False Water God: If it’s Offscreen Villainy, cut.
• Taigokumaru: His actions sound like what most monsters in the series do. I’m thinking cut.
• Noh Mask: I saw that episode, the Noh Mask was nothing more than a regular monster. It hardly exceeded the heinous standard of this series, or likely any other series. Cut.
• Spiderhead Monk: He doesn’t sound like he passes the heinous standard. Cut.
• Magutsuhi: Despite being the spirit of the jewel shard and one of the main antagonists of the series, it sounds like he does relatively little from my Wikipedia scrawl. He just tries to hurt the heroes. I say cut.
• Mukotsu: According to the character page, in the manga he’s an actual rapist which, to my knowledge, isn’t a common occurrence in Inuyasha. Due to that, I’m leaning towards keep.
• Tokajin: I suppose if he cannibalized, or attempted to cannibalize, people onscreen, I think I’d be willing to keep him. He sounds like a unique human villain in the series.
• Suikotsu: Depends how much free agency he has. Since he’s the Axe-Crazy personality of a truly good man, I don’t think he’s entirely his own person, just the bad part of an existing person. I’m leaning towards cut.

@6531: I’ll wait for njrxll’s input before casting a vote for Darth Krayt. Currently I’m leaning towards including him.

Also I cut Candie and Stephen from Django Unchained.

edited 5th Jan '13 9:17:37 PM by OccasionalExister

Re: the Inuyasha examples:

• Naraku: Keep. Big Bad, humongous body count, likes to screw with people's lives when he's bored, will go for the nastiest method possible when carrying out his plans, etc. As I read it, his/Onigumo's "love" for Kikyo is obsession rather than actual love; as others have pointed out, he's killed and manipulated her many times without hesitation or remorse. Also, it's strongly implied that Onigumo would have had no qualms about raping her if he had been able to move.
• Akago: On the fence. He's an interesting case in that he is, in a way, actually a part of Naraku; he does have autonomy, though. If I recall correctly, his goal was to absorb Naraku and take over his quest. He's a Manipulative Bastard with absolutely no moral qualms, and in terms of threat to the heroes, he's at least equal to Naraku. However, as he is in the form of a baby, he isn't able to actually do all that much himself, although he does order an impressive body count and really messes with a lot of minds.
• Naraku's minions: One thing to keep in mind when discussing Naraku's minions is that he holds their hearts in his hand. Literally. Their choice is obey him and live, or rebel and die, so issues of coercion come in. That said, the work definitely shows that they do have choice in their morality. Some follow only reluctantly, whereas others seem to revel in their tasks.
  • Hakudoshi: Cut. I barely remember him, but from what I do remember, he was fairly standard for villainy, although unusual in that he targeted his own kind (youkai) rather than humans.
  • Goshinki: Cut. Pretty standard Monster of the Week.
• False water god: Cut. Yeah, requiring child sacrifice is bad, but he was a Monster of the Week, we never actually see him kill any children (we see the sacrifice being prepared, but the heroes step in and save the child), and in a world where entire villages are slaughtered on a regular basis, a few children over the course of years is not that comparatively bad.
• Shiori's grandfather: Cut. I barely remember him, and from the description he's definitely small fry compared to Naraku.
• Noh mask: Cut. Standard Monster of the Week, although slightly more cunning and creepy than most.
• Magatsuhi: Cut. He's locked in the jewel, so he does pretty much zilch.
• Tokajin: Cut. Once again, creepy Monster of the Week who is bad but very overshadowed by Naraku.
• Mukotsu: On the fence. He's an awful, awful person, with a fairly impressive body count. His actions towards Kagome are sexually aggressive, but we only hear (from him) about his other treatment of women. Once again, he's objectively less heinous than Naraku, but he seems to be as heinous as his abilities allow (he's human, mostly, and Naraku is demon, mostly) and has a sexual level to some of his crimes, which is something that Naraku never dips into.
• Suikotsu: Cut. His split personality is a little too unified for me to be able to accept him as a complete monster. His bad side is bad, but his good side is a genuinely nice man who suffers horrible regret for his past bad actions.
• Spider Head Leader: Cut. Once again, a nasty manipulative Monster of the Week, but not really extraordinary.

edited 5th Jan '13 10:18:41 PM by Nocturna

@ Occasional Exister

There are multiple supplementary things that show Nihilus isn't that incomprehensible. He might be driven to hunger, but nothing says he has to enjoy it, or tortuously mind rape others.

As for Taigokumaru. The reason I feel he's unique isn't just vilage slaughter. His manipulation of his granddaughter is pretty unique in the series, not to mention no other villain actually murdered their own child for objecting to these plans.

As for Joshua Wright, we saw him brutally murder another magician, and when he comes back after a hiatus he murders a few more people and summons Kali. Really, it's what he does to Isabelle and the sheer joy he took in it. This is treated as pretty damn bad even by Hellblazer standards, and it's indicated he's going to do it again. Wright is like the Family Man: nasty as he can be and get away with.

edited 6th Jan '13 1:26:31 AM by Lightysnake

Good that we've removed Porky Minch from Mother 3 from the Video Games archive, but would anyone disagree with me that Fassad from the same game would qualify? In the first chapter in which he appears, he does nothing but abuse Salsa, giving him electroshocks and dangling empty promises of bananas and a reunion with his girlfriend in front of him, among other things. He has no Freudian Excuse for having betrayed the other Magypsies, Lucas and Wess revile him for how he treats Salsa, and even though a mouse tells the main characters that he was treated nicely by him, that shouldn't count as a redeeming quality any more than Offstage Villainy counts for this trope.

One example I'd also like to contest removal on is Ma-Ma Madrigal from Dredd

The deletion gave the reason as nothing she does is particularly heinous by the standard of the setting. While this would be very true in the comics, this is a film, and a completely different media with no hint of genocidal fascists or nihilistic reapers. Because of the film's limited scope, I think she should count.

Her crimes include:

- Having people skinned alive, and then given a drug to slow down time for them for making them fall down a full kilometer

- having gouged out the eyes of her clan's computer guy to make him serve her out of fear

- opens fire into a civilian crowd with a gatling gun herself to kill Dredd, not really bothered about the collateral damage

She does have aspects of Pragmatic Villainy in that she won't permit Dredd or the female judge Anderson be tortured or raped, but this isn't due to moral hangups. Rather, she needs their deaths to look like a drug bust gone wrong so more judges don't come around her door. She also refuses to kill an underling who got himself captured,but she says she'd happily kill him if Dredd hadn't just slaughtered her men, meaning she can't really afford to waste any more of them. Pragmatic Villainy as opposed to redeeming features.

And finally, she also plans to blow up the entire apartment complex she's in if she's killed, having linked a bomb to her heart rate.

She'd be small fry in the comics, it's true, but in the film, we're given no indication worse people exist,and we seem to treat these kinds of adaptations as utterly separate.

edited 6th Jan '13 7:18:29 AM by Lightysnake

Haha.....I will eat my head off because of this pathetic, pathetic example I jsut found!

From YMMV section of Wizards Of Waverly Place

• Gorog. Consider that he made everyone on the planet evil, if even for a little while, with the whole Moral Compass, it brings tons of Fridge Horror. Who knows how many rapes, murders and other things he was responsible for? It's possible that he could have made most of the world cross the Moral Event Horizon when he set the Moral Compass to evil.

He is played for laughs, this whole %*#*)$ show is Played for Laughs. It's all Inferred Holocaust and Fridge Horror. I do not approve of Satan figures qualifying for this trope as they're too inscrutable to fully judge from human values, through I could see why in the eyes of many Sauron and Morgoth would qualify(enough for me to change my vote for that from no to abstain). But this isn't even close and the guy simply looked too deep into it!

Also Ambar, can you expand this I found on the Gundam Unicorn YMMV page?

• Complete Monster: Martha Vist Carbine, who will use anyone from teenage girls to family members as political tools... and not in a nice way, either. She's pretty much the only villain so far presented without the slightest hint of sympathy (excluding Frontal, who's just too inscrutable).

edited 6th Jan '13 8:48:24 AM by xie323

Yeah. Burn that Gorog entry from our eyes. That one needs to go hard

Haven't finished Unicorn. Will find out though.

@Occasional Exister

Will try to find more information on Lamashtu soon. I've been stuck using the internet, but as of today will be back at university where I can hopefully access an actual book of Sumerian myth.

edited 6th Jan '13 10:40:36 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar