During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
By the way, I decided to mention in Charles from Jade Green's writeup that what he did traumatized Mrs. Hasting for years from what she told Judith about the incident where she discovered her body...
This isn't really an issue so much as something that confuses and slightly irks me: why do the entries for Adam Sutler and Fire Lord Ozai read as "High Chancellor Adam Sutler" and "Fire Lord Ozai" respectively? Having part of their names in plain text between potholes seems strange and awkward to me.
@ 45976 ACW, well the film is still on Netflix and can be watched by anyone with a Netflix account at their leisure (its been there since Friday). Don't get me wrong, I have no problem waiting till next Monday rather then doing the effort post on the Commandant, but at this point I think we should establish some guidelines when the 2 weeks rule applies and when it doesn't, especially since someone asked Lighty to do an effort post right away.
Also I hate to bring this up again, but I still have a 5 to 2 vote in favor of Shiwan Khan, is that enough for a write up or do more people have to vote one way or the other?
Also ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Grumpf and ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Brune.
edited 19th Oct '15 4:51:11 PM by Overlord
I feel like Tao Pai Pai should be removed. While his actions are heinous they're far less than the other Dragon Ball Complete Monsters (and even less heinous than the actions of non CM's such as Vegeta or Demon King Piccolo come to think about it), and if you include the anime, isn't even played very seriously during Dragon Ball Z.
edited 15th Dec '15 6:25:38 PM by Awesomekid42
I'm no expert on Dragon Ball,but isn't Tao a normal human, while most of the villains are planet-exploding aliens?
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@ACW & Overlord: I was only saying that the movie's up there in case anyone else wants to see it. >__< Rather fantastic film; imagine Blood Diamond but it focuses solely on the child's POV. And it's much more realistic/uncomfortable/gritty.
But yes, I do believe we should wait at least a week or two before discussing anyone from some form of media that recently came out. Remember Priscilla Allen.
RIP Toriyama
So, quick question: How do we handle All Just a Dream/ Show Within a Show scenarios? Let's say an entire show or movie happens, and there's a contender or two, but then within the last few minutes of the story it turns out it was all a simulation, dream sequence, or TV show within the story?
No particular example (at the moment), just a question I've had for awhile.
edited 19th Oct '15 10:30:47 PM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Patrick Bateman from American Psycho was deemed a keep even though the events of the film all supposedly happened in his head
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
That was Book!Bateman though.
@ Demon Duck Of Doom
Well he does become a cyborg later on, but pretty much.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well let's compare:
- Frieza: Alien who destroys two planets.
- Cell: Ultimate Lifeform.
- Babidi: revived the magical creature Majin Buu, of which Super Buu is a part.
- Demigra: Demon God.
@ Ravok: Those are two different type of scenarios. We agreed that a character from a Show Within a Show can count as a CM as long as they meet every other criterium, but it's so rare that we haven't positively identified one yet. I suppose a story told through a Framing Device would be fair game too.
For tropes like All Just a Dream or Through the Eyes of Madness, it gets trickier. Patrick Bateman is a special case because there's as much pointing to the events being reality as being Patrick's fantasies, but generally it depends on how conclusive the reveal is. If the twist clearly establishes that it's all imigination, they couldn't qualify because the characters in the fantasy are likely neither sentient (failing moral agency) nor did they commit any real crimes (failing the heinous bar).
For instance, with Total Recall it's a recurring theme, but it mainly works as a straight action story-the villains in that were disqualified for reasons other than the possibility that it might all be a holodream. In the Mouth of Madness has an evil horror writer who destroys a town by tormenting the people and mutating their children into abominations and then causes The End of the World as We Know It because of his god complex, but the story is so convoluted that there's no way to tell what's real or not by the end.
edited 20th Oct '15 5:51:05 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Kay...Life Is Strange is over now, and I'm giving the villain a pre emptive , but I'm gonna wait two weeks before talking about him. I tell you what though, that game really hits you hard in the feels.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I'm also sure that the world being in a book was outright stated by Word of God.
edited 20th Oct '15 7:24:09 AM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Beast, could you perhaps not spoiler the name and just say 'the villain' instead as people could read that without meaning to?
Morgenthaler: Don't forget, Mouth of Madness also implies that the entire world the movie has is taking place within Sutter Cane's novel.
Well, Dragon Ball WAS a lot lighter than its successor was...so its villains were not as evil...
Honestly, not sure Tao counts now
I really believe Tao Pai Pai should be cut. There are just far too many villains in the series that are more heinous: Freeza, Cell, Buu, Babidi, Dr. Gero, the Bad Future versions of 18 and 19, pre-Heel–Face Turn Vegeta and Piccolo. Compared to all of them, Tao Pai Pai is positively tame. You can't even make the different resources argument since Van Zant and Smitty, two non-powered psychopaths managed to rack up a bigger bodycount than Tao in a shorter amount of screentime, and they had nothing to help them but guns. Cut him.
edited 20th Oct '15 10:21:04 AM by OccasionalExister
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Don't do that please; now I'm gonna have to do research as to why some of the above (Gero, Bad Future Editions) don't count 
.
Pertinently though, is DB the same universe as DBZ?
edited 20th Oct '15 10:26:41 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Don't worry, we already discussed those characters and turned them down. The relationship between Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z is the same as Naruto and Naruto Shippuden. Same universe, same characters, just a Time Skip in between.
I'm opposed to cutting Tao. We discussed him well and good, and he's the worst normal human in the series.
Same here.
Well, since Tao's a super powered martial artist, and Van Zant and Smitty are just guys with guns, and the latter two do more heinous things, I'm gonna have to Tao. Why don't Van Zant and Smitty count? I never did get that far in DBZ.
Actually, we decided they weren't as bad as Tao.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, something about them being generic (in DBZ terms anyway). Though now that does make me wonder about Tao.
Way back when I first proposed Bandos, I pointed out how two of his apparent positive qualities, battlefield honor and considering the player a worthy opponent, either amounted to nothing or can be considered negative when you think of the implications. In the God Wars, which was apocalyptic in scale, Bandos fought simply because he enjoyed war and would regularly ally with another faction only to betray them when the fighting was over, only so he could continue to kill more people on war. He is basically the Major from Hellsing on a divine scale. I compared his calling the player a Worthy Opponent meant nothing since he was trying to turn the player into one of his remorseless berserker soldiers. He is The Corrupter in that regard and I compared him directly to Palpatine convincing the Skywalkers to turn to the Dark Side for more power.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.