During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I don't think so. There are some mitigating factors to Grenouille. He is not devoid of sympathy from the narrative due to his...ailment and alienation.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Judging from what I've seen on the trope page... his ultimate fate and Utopia Justifies the Means goal prevents me from saying yes.
On the subject, I'd like to open discussion on a character that's been bugging me for a while:
Corpse Bride: Lord Barkis Bittern, despite his uptight snobbery, he at least seems to care about his bride, but in reality, he's a male gold digger. In a flashback image, we see a shadowy figure attacking, robbing, and killing Emily (the eponymous Corpse Bride). Later on in the film, it's revealed that Barkis was her fiancé and murderer, and responsible for her depression. After marrying Victoria, he plans to rob her blind and murder her as well. Unfortunately, her parents are broke and marrying Victoria to him for wealth that he doesn't actually have. When he learns this, he tries to kill both Victor and Victoria out of frustration.
Is Barkis really even heinous enough? He scores only one victim (granted, said victim is stuck in limbo but that was completely unintentional on his part) and tries to kill two more. It's been a while since I've seen the movie, but when you can chalk up his rapsheet to "attempts to kill the heroes and acts like an ass" I'm not seeing him fly past the standard in this case.
edited 21st Jun '15 6:28:43 PM by Scraggle
Barkis had a fairly extensive discussion some time ago IIRC.
Barkis is The Blue Beard in a family movie, that makes him stand out.
Blaine Debeers got plenty of ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
votes if I remember correctly, anyone wanna try a write up?
I'm done with research on Molag Bal, expect an effort post tomorrow.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
@41078: We do see an illustration of his patients'/victims' death throes as his backstory is being told, so the short answer is yes. Another thing that I thought to mention is that he likes to take video recordings of his victims' suffering (as we see him doing to the heroes). This might not add to heinousness per se, but definitely adds to him being a sick bastard.
I'd say no to Secco unless someone wants to make a case for him. Unlike the CM duos we've voted up, Cioccolata already had a body count before meeting Secco, is the clearing driving force in their shared crimes, and it's hard to attribute anything specifically to Secco.
While I'm working on an effort post for Diavolo, there's one thing I want to clear up: the suggestion that he might have a moral standard. He tells us that he despises Cioccolata and Secco and considers them "trash", but he doesn't say why he feels that way. He says that he's hesitant to call on them, but notes immediately afterward that they're hard to control, which sounds more like Pragmatic Villainy.
edited 21st Jun '15 8:31:56 PM by BigglesTh9
As promised, here is my effort post on Gala, the fal'Cie who possessed Cid.
Who is he?
The fal'Cie, known as "Gala" is the final boss of Final Fantasy Type-0. He possessed Cid to turn him into the demonic arbiter. We don't meet Gala till the end of the game, but we see his influence and he talks through Cid. Gala escapes from Cid's body after Cid kills himself to try and stop himself from destroying everything. Gala is fought and defeated by Class Zero at the end.
What has he done?
First of all, he starts a genocidal war through the entire world through Cid with the hopes of killing everyone. When that fails, he forces his human puppet, Cid nuke a portion of his nation, (to which Cid is horrified by, but can't do anything about it) and then attacks Class Zero while the heroes are away destroying most of it leading to the deaths of many, including children. Then finally, he uses Cid in an attempt to completely destroy the world. He also experiments on the humans similar to the godlike race in Final Fantasy XII, torturing them for his own amusement. He taunts the heroes trying to find a way to make them suffer with no remorse or regret.
Does he have an excuse?
None. And unlike the other fal'Cie in the Fabula Nova Chrysalis series, he is neither benevolent nor a Well-Intentioned Extremist. His goal is to open Etro's gate to exterminate humanity. To do this, he needs a rush of souls. While it may seem like he's a well intentioned extremist, unlike Barthandelus and Orphan he does not wish for Etro or the Maker Lindzei to make a new world and just wants everything dead because he feels that the world is imperfect. (Read that last line very carefully. No one but him feels this way.)
Final Verdict?
Calling this guy a Well-Intentioned Extremist is like calling Zemus one. His motives are entirely selfish and unlike the other fal'Cie, he does not wish to recreate the world and just wants to kill 'em all because he feels the world isn't worth existing in.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll solidify my to Cioccolata (any way we could at least mention Secco in his entry?) and Gala, as he doesn't seem like a Generic Doomsday Villain not does he appear to be a WIE.
I've added a line including what I wanted too.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
BTW, I realized that, unless I'm mistaken, Apocalypse is not only the first CM from an X Men game, but the first CM from ANY Marvel Video Game. DC has had Joker (twice) and Brainiac.
Speaking of which, Batman: Arkham Knight is released tomorrow, I believe. I put a note on the YMMV page to bring entries here, and to wait until July 1st.
edited 22nd Jun '15 6:07:01 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
George Harvey also tries to avoid getting caught or facing repercussions numerous times and it was not out of guilt. Susie's dad sets out to get him and Harvey causes a scenario in which he's brutally beaten and ends up in a coma. So to him. Stanley Tucci should have gotten a Best Villain nomination for that performance.
edited 22nd Jun '15 7:24:50 AM by futuremoviewriter
to Erszebet Ondrushko and Film!Harvey.
@ACW, not sure if you've submitted the entries from last week yet but be sure to put the Witcher 3 examples in the Witcher subpage.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Did that for Whoreson Jr.; Concerned Citizen's next week.
You did? He's not showing up on the Witcher franchise monster page.
@Lighty and Scraggle
I'll refrain from persuing Grenouille any further then. That man is such an enigma, so alien in his perception and thinking, that arguing for him would be difficult. This is ignoring the ambiguity of his upbringing being a valid FE and the possibility that he is the spawn of the devil, all of which brings his moral agency into question. I will say that I disagree with the idea that he desires some utopia. Or, rather, he only wants a utopia for himself to enjoy. He's more of a Despotism Justifies the Means towards the end, though even that doesn't satisfy his hate and contempt towards humanity. He's such a Misanthrope Supreme that he even comes to loathe himself and his lack of scent. How sympathetic he is is very much a personal thing to consider. I, myself, don't have much towards him. A little pity, perhaps, but that's all. Anyway, I think I'm done. Sorry for the lengthy post.
Not a worry. Not many other people have read Perfume and it's a truly bizarre story.
I think the deciding factor for me is Grenouille maintains a level of sympathy for me and isn't wholly evil. He literally knows no other way to be than what and how he is and has no idea what he does is even wrong.
Oh, and yes to Erszebet btw. I have seen that film.
Yes, we talked about Grenouille. He's one of those rare human characters who can genuinely be said to perceive the world through Blue-and-Orange Morality—he values everything in terms of scents, not the value of life. He's essentially a tragic figure in that his acts are driven by his need for purpose and not malice, and his whole existence and the impact he had on the world ends in a Shoot the Shaggy Dog.
For Cannibal Ferox... I might be inclined to vote him up , though Beast, please don't make a habit out of skipping over stuff. Prior experience here has established that this only leads to bad examples. Specifically, and I suspect that this is a yes with those movies' love of gorn, is his past mistreatment of the native tribe shown?
Looking at the Complete Monster YMMV Pages, there are still quite a number of unresolved items. Anyone have even a passing familiarity with the remainder on there? And ACW, Lanfeust!Thanos can just be cut on ZCE grounds, not re-added as one. If they weren't even willing to put in the effort, we don't have to do their work for them.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Finally, here is my effort post on Molag Bal from the Elder Scrolls franchise.
WARNING!!! UNMARKED SPOILERS FROM THE ELDER SCROLL FRANCHISE!
Who is he and what has he done?
Molag Bal is one the seventeen known Daedric Princes from the Elder Scrolls universe. The Daedra as a whole did not take part in the creation of the world, Mundus/Nirn, as opposed to the Aedra who put their being into it. The Princes are the most powerful of the Daedra and are worshipped as gods and each has their own sphere of influence. Molag Bal's spheres include the the enslavement and domination of mortals. He is known as the King of Rape, the Harvester of Souls, and the Lord of Brutality, and his main desire is to harvest the souls of mortals and to bring them within his sway by spreading seeds of strife and discord in the mortal realms. Legends claim he commited the first rape which in turned created the first vampire (he did as shown in Elder Scrolls Online below) and he is known to turn other mortals into vampires through horrific rituals (as explained by the vampire Serena in Skyrim). Each of the Princes has their own realm of Oblivion in which they rule; the realm of Molag Bal is known as Coldharbour and resembles a copy of Nirn, including the Imperial Palace, but all desecrated and ruined, the ground is sludge, the sky is on fire, and the air is freezing. His artifact is called the Mace of Molag Bal and drains the life from any it is struck by; it was created by an orcish blacksmith whose soul he enslaved and forced to work in Coldharbour. Here is a listing of what roles he plays in each of the games in the series:
Daggerfall: He rewards the Mace to the player when they kill a wizard who was drawing power from Molag Bal without a contract.
Morrowind: He is seen as a Satanic figure by the Dunmer/Dark Elves, which is supported by his actions in-game. The player can be given the Mace if they hunt down and destroy one of Molag Bal's servants who is hiding instead of sowing strife in Bal's name. Players who want to cure their vampyrism are told to hunt down Bal's daughter who fell in love with a "lesser" daedra. This game explicitly shows that he doesn't give a damn about his servants or his family and treats them as tools.
Oblivion: He asks the player yet again to commit another foul deed. It is best described by Bal himself: "Another mortal come to do my bidding. I only wish suffering and death. You will bring me both. I want to see a man brought to the edge. And pushed. Near Brindle Home you will find Melus Petilius. A good man. An honorable man. He disgusts me. He has sworn an oath: never to raise a weapon against another man again. I want him to break that oath, and damn himself forever. You will let him kill you with this: the Cursed Mace. As you are doing this for me, I'll save your miserable life. Probably. Get out of my sight." Here is what he says when you succeed: "Well, it seems you've accomplished the task set out for you. Well done. Another man damned. Another ruined soul. But, you'll still get your prize, won't you? I think it was worth it... don't you? Keep up the good work, little mortal." or if you fail: "You've failed, mortal. I didn't figure you had it in you. Weakling. Pathetic piece of filth. Leave, before I make you sorry you ever came here." Yeah...
Skyrim: His quest begins when an Aedric priest seeks to cleanse an area of Daedric influence. Molag Bal forces you kill him to continue, or alternatively, terrorizes the man into trying to kill you if you refuse. His ACTUAL quest involves hunting down and capturing a servant of his rival and fellow Prince Boethiah. When you bring the priest back to Bal, he imprisons the man and commands you to beat him until he pledges his soul to Bal. When the priest finally breaks down from the torture, Bal gets bored and orders you to kill him so that he can begin with tormenting the man in death. The Dawnguard expansion also reveals the families made pacts with Molag Bal to become vampires if they let him rape them in payment as was done to, and described by, Serena.
Elder Scrolls Online: Molag Bal reaches the pinnacle of his evil in this game in which he serves as the Big Bad. His evil plan involves the Planemeld: using stolen souls, such as player characters', to power soul anchors in order to drag the entire realm of Nirn into Coldharbour. He seeks to dominate and torture the soul of every living being just because he enjoys it. The game goes into length at just how petty his evil can be. The player can meet Lamae Bal, the Daughter of Coldharbour. She is the first vampire and the first woman ever to be raped, and her entire storyline in ESO involves her using her progeny to incite a rebellion against Bal and get her revenge.
Any mitigating factors?
He has absolutely no redeeming qualities, unlike the other Deadric Princes who either have some form of positive aspects to their portfolios or have shown some benevolence to mortals. The lore in-game leads one to believe the Princes to be Above Good and Evil. This is an example of the Complete Monster trope going against author intent as the Daedra have been shown to grasp the concepts of love and compassion. For example, the Shivering Isles expansion to Oblivion is devoted to Sheogorath's attempts to save his realm and his subjects, and the last converation with him before he becomes Jyggalag shows the loves his people like a father would. He also avoids being a Generic Doomsday Villain because he has shown himself to be manipulative and having a personality even if it is completely vile.
Final Verdict?
I see no reason why Molag Bal shouldn't be considered a monster as he is the greatest and most heinous evil in the entire Elder Scrolls franchise. Elder Scrolls Online also served to get rid of his Offscreen Villainy disqualifier as he serves as the Big Bad and his crime of the first rape has observable consequences in the form of Lamae Bal.
edited 22nd Jun '15 1:58:21 PM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
As much as I massively dislike Molog Bal, I have to say that Blue-and-Orange Morality is in full effect with him just as much as it is in effect with all other Deadra. Everything I've read about deadra (especially the deadric princes) makes no mention of them even having a morality system. What they do all the time though is try to extend the influence of their spheres, but most of the deadric princes don't have to go to the lengths Molog Bal does because their spheres aren't as overt as his is. Or people don't recognize their spheres at all because they're so commonplace...
For everyone else who doesn't know The Elder Scrolls 'verse, Molog Bal is a Deadric Prince, which runs somewhere along the lines of being some mix of Eldritch Abomination, Genius Loci, Sentient Cosmic Force, Eldritch Location, and Physical God. The Deadric Princes aren't so much the personification their spheres so much as they are their spheres (they are locations as much as they are beings and ideas). And it's also unknown if they chose what their spheres would be because they knew it was wrong or not. Heck, it's not even specified if their counterparts, the Aedra have the same morality as mortals do... and this is in the video game series that puts in-game political/metaphical bias into everything we read in the game on purpose... and just about everything we know about the TES 'verse comes from in-game writings.
edited 22nd Jun '15 2:27:17 PM by ObsidianFire
When I think of Blue and Orange Morality, I think of Lovecraft's gods. So powerful they don't truly grasp the concept of humanity. I don't truly believe the Daedric Princes operate on that level, and if Sheogorath can comprehend emotions on a human level there is no proof the others can't be held to that level.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
One last thing on Grenouille: There's a single moment I can recall that the narrator informs us that Grenouille considers himself to be "evil". My personal interpretation is that he considers himself outside of normal human and divine ideas of morality. And he certainly is. Yes, Blue-and-Orange Morality works well in describing him.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Alright, I cut Thanos (and people, when removing something from the list, PLEASE also remove it from the corresponding YMMV page).
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
So I finished Perfume The Story Of A Murderer the other day and was wondering if Jean Baptiste Grenouille would count.
He's a Villain Protagonist who kills women in his search for the perfect perfume. I'm probably gonna come back to this tomorrow, since I'm tired, but that book's been sticking in my mind lately.