During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Would the slaver count?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
He's more than a slaver, and yes, definitely. I plan to address him in a future post. Having seen Valiant, I vote yes.
Okay, back from dinner at a restaurant. Here's Maltruant.
- Ben 10: Omniverse: The Arc Villain of the 8th season, Maltruant, is a rogue Chronosapien bent on ruling all of time and existence. He masterminded the original Time War in his first bid for universal control, but was defeated and his body separated across time by Professor Paradox. Seeking to restart the Time War and win, He hired Dr. Psychobos to help repair himself. After his Co-Dragons Subdora and Exo-Skull complete repairing his body, Maltruant turned on Dr. Psychobos, easily defeated Ben Prime and Ben 23, and left both for dead in Mad Ben's dimension with his minions to restart the Time War. Once he travels to the time period of Ben 10,000 to steal the Anihilaarg and the Dwarf Star so he can create a more deadly weapon, Maltruant traveled back to the very beginning of the universe and snuck aboard the Contemelia's ship, where he switched their Anihilaarg with his own in order to recreate the universe in his image. Extremely power hungry and so egomanical that when he met the Contemelia (who always appear in the form of who or what one holds dearest in their hearts) he saw three alternate versions of himself, Maltruant cements himself as one of Ben's most monstrous enemies.
Is this Franken Fran rewrite good?
- Franken Fran:
- One of Fran's employers was a vain scientist who sought out eternal youth. In the pursuit of said eternal youth, she was shown to be very intolerant towards any doctor who failed her, and would punish them by decapitation and would steal their research on top of that for the sake of turning profits. Not just monstrous to the doctors she hired, she also had a thing for slaughtering clones of herself for the sake of drinking the juice from their eggs.
- The psychotic mass murderer and serial rapist known as the "Very Lucky Man" was known as such because of his advanced healing factor. Thanks to said healing factor there was no way for him to be executed and knowing this, he defiled and slaughtered as many people as he could manage.
Well the forum ate my post, but basically I searched and got the following tally for Felix (which is not counting everyone as I'm sure I missed some pages):
Cut
Me, Ambar, Camberf, Scraggle, and Very Melon
Keep
Bakura, captainmarkle, Irene, and I think Lightysnake from memory.
Undecided
ACW, who raised issues about heinous factor.
If there are any corrections people would like to make please let me know, as right now we're on a deadlock. (EDIT: Very Melon's vote counted, now it's 5 to 4 which is too close to call)
edited 21st Nov '14 7:03:03 PM by Shaoken
Felix arguments Shaoken?
Basically insufficient heinousness; I did a proper effort post here but to highlight all of his actions he shares with a group of around twenty others, all under the express orders of someone else. The only deviation he has from his orders is that he gloats about what he's done. Onscreen his teammates have a higher confirmed body count, and everyone is involved in keeping Chorus locked into a civil war that will wipe everyone out. He can't be truly heinous if his actions are the exact same as an entire group of people.
True. ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Felix
I'll Felix, in light of all recent arguments opposing him. The personality can boost one's rise to Monsterdom, but if you've got an entire group mirroring your actions, that diminishes the effects of your own.
I'll give Vidian a yes.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
So, I just finished a Let's Play of Trauma Center. The game's villain, Erich Von Raitenau, is listed as a CM, but I'm not sure if he counts myself. Specifically, I think his Humans Are the Real Monsters belief is a little too honest; he seems to genuinely believe that humans are "parasites," and that his Artificial Plague is the only answer. Thoughts?
... So, what's the difference between Knight Templar and Complete Monster? Apparently, qualifying for the first disqualifies you from the latter, and I may have to ask that we bring up an old entry for another look.
If everyone were normal, the world would be a dull place. Like reality television.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
No no no, it's Well-Intentioned Extremist that disqualifies you (don't feel bad; I had trouble differentiating between the two myself). We have several Knights Templar as monsters (among them, Frollo). Who's the old entry?
edited 22nd Nov '14 12:18:23 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Dark Lord of Hawaiian Shirts
I was about to mention Frollo myself.
Knight Templars tend to believe that their actions are good and just, while they're generally on the other side of the spectrum. Nothing says they can't be completely heinous, like Frollo, who's very, very evil, even for Disney Villain standards. Another example is the Reverend from the first The Witcher game. See its YMMV-page for trope description.
Well-intentioned extremists tend to be more self-aware for their actions, knowing they're questionable and doesn't take pleasure in it if they're very questionable. An exampler of an Well-Intentioned Extremist who's not a Complete Monster is Kerghan from Arcanum Of Steamwork And Magic Obscura. He's an Omnicidal Maniac who wants to end all life in Arcanum. Sounds horrible, right? Well, in Arcanum, afterlife is described as pleasant and life is filled with suffering. His claim s even backed-up by your own companion, who's likely good-aligned and has been dead at some point.
Srg. Dornan: Troper, what are you doing here?! Get back to your post!!!
Baldren Gassenarl. He's on the YMMV page for Valkyria Chronicles II, and while I won't deny he's a heinous piece of work, playing the game again, I do wonder if he might have a redeeming trait or two. I tried searching for discussion on this thread, but couldn't find any.
The two times I recall were once, in an optional cutscene, and at the end of the game. In the optional cutscene, he talks with one of the rebels about the soldier's hometown, and how it was picturesque until it was destroyed in the previous war. The other was that he tries to recruit the Lanseal cadets at the end, and when defeated, he simply resides to say "Then protect Gallia with your own power" before he dies.
This is just something that seems off to me, it's probably nothing.
edited 22nd Nov '14 3:32:07 AM by ekimmak
If everyone were normal, the world would be a dull place. Like reality television.
Having played the game a few years ago, I remember Baldren as a clear CM, and he definitely meets the heinousness bar. But I'm happy to re-evaluate him.
I can now see some potential redeeming qualities, but I'm not so sure. Apparently the Complete Artworks describes him as "a patriot who grieves over the state of his country and hopes to reshape its future". In-game, however, I don't recall any motives other than his Fantastic Racism and a malign sort of nationalism (more hatred of neighbouring countries than love of his own people). He seems not to give a shit about the human cost of enacting his vision or its net benefit to humanity, which would place him in Knight Templar territory.
His exact words in the ending were "Then try to defend this country... my home... with just those frail arms", which seems more like mockery of the protagonists than anything. The interesting bit, though, is when he repeats the words "try to defend".
I'll abstain, on the basis that it seems like the writers had redeeming qualities in mind but didn't illustrate them clearly in-game. Which raises a more general question: how do we treat supplementary materials that are dissonant with a character's in-text portrayal?
edited 22nd Nov '14 4:37:16 AM by BigglesTh9
I think I see where my problems with his qualification is, if what you're saying about his final words is true (I only recently started playing again due to the original game's rerelease on Steam).
I'm seeing his actions before the Gassernarls succeeded in their takeover. This is why I'm seeing him being relatively decent for someone trying to exterminate a race: it's possible that he chose not to mention a Valkyria aiding the Lanseal forces because it would have worried his sister, and he discusses with a fellow soldier how he dreads that Cordelia plans to turn Gallia into a nation of Darcens.
When he goes overboard around the middle of the game, he shows none of that. His sister perishes and he merely shrugs it off, Lanseal forces continue to thwart his plans so he tries to bury them, Darcsen miners, and innocent civilians alive, and I'll admit, when he tried to recruit the Lanseal forces, it feels incredibly Oo C considering that Class G was the class in Lanseal where all the Darcsens ended up.
... guess that was a pretty pointless thing to bring up.
Well, when we deal with someone in multiple mediums that only qualifies in some of them, we specifically mention where it is they qualify. If it was supplementary material that qualifies them, we say specifically that's the case, so if there's material that disqualifies them, we bring up that they don't qualify if you consider those materials.
Of course, that's just me guessing.
edited 22nd Nov '14 4:42:31 AM by ekimmak
If everyone were normal, the world would be a dull place. Like reality television.
As I remember it, the murder of his father was the end of any moral ambiguity he had left, making him a classic case of Jumping Off the Slippery Slope. I'll be keen to know what you think at the end of this playthrough.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Dating Game woman's added, along with the quote (the husband's quote is at the quote page).
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lizzid people!
Okay, and are we still going to use Red as the image for the page?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Works for me, only question is which image?
Lizzid people!
What about the second picture of Red that I found? The other two images that you gave were kind of too small to make out.
edited 22nd Nov '14 8:07:12 AM by AustinDR
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
edited 22nd Nov '14 8:12:50 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Got a nomination for Prince Valiant, the Sage Advisor to Prince, later King Michael, Selena.
Who is She?
Selena, like Morgaine le Fey is one of Merlin's rivals, having became the 'Sage Advisor' to Prince Michael's father. However, while Merlin became Arthur's advisor to help with the new way and advise the next generation, Selena wanted to become the Woman Behind the Man for the throne. As such she supported a rival house which threw Michael's country into civil war, all the while making plots to murder people and frame innocents. When her plans are exposed she flees but she continues to support the House she thinks will be the easiest to manipulate.
What Has She Done?
Causes a civil war which will spill over to the rest of the region so she can get power. To do this, she makes plans to murder an infant, Mind Rapes King Michael into proclaiming the rival house his symbol, finally helps in an attack on Rowanne's home town just to get her petty revenge for sabotaging her plans.
Heinous Standard?
She crosses it big time. Compared to the series Big Bad Mordred, she's a self-serving, It's All About Me Traitor. She doesn't care that she's tearing the country she helped build apart if she can get one up on Merlin AND gain the power. She's shown that all she is is a petty, greedy person.
Conclusion
The only villain who compares to her in the show was a one-off villain who was a slaver, thus she fits the standard. If the series was able to continue, she would probably have been elevated to Big Bad status after Mordred's defeat since her plots were still in the air.