During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Brand.
Feels good, don't it?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to him.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Classy, Refined, Unstable
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Jonah, Brand
Ultimate Moral Compass
Devereaux and Brand
Orville
BTW, someone asked about Nancy Drew, I think someone did an EP for the Netflix show, but there were questions about the heinousness of the character that never got answered.
Professor Gigachad
Major Orville Brand
Shin Megami Tensei IV
RIP Toriyama
Yes to Devereaux, sick bastard...same to Garner and Brand
Hate to do this one as the guy is grade-a slime, but got a cut to submit:
- NOS4A2: Bing Partridge, the Gasmask Man, started off murdering his own parents at a young age. As an adult, Bing would work for Charlie Manx to help him abduct children and their mothers so he can earn a place in Christmasland for himself. Bing would then take the mothers to his basement so he could repeatedly rape them before eventually killing them. Helping Manx escape prison after his supposed death, he assisted him in abducting Victoria "Vic" McQueen's son Wayne as revenge, threatening to tear out his tongue when the boy annoys him and later trying to rape Vic when she comes looking for him.
Bing is a heinous rapist and murderer, but ultimately? He's got a litany of issues.
- He's batshit insane, for one, and arguably beyond a qualifier's scope. He's childish to a truly pathetic degree, crying over minor chastisement and giddily holding conversation with two of his victims—when Manx, in disgust, points out they're dead, Bing seems genuinely stumped at why that matters that he "wants company."
- He's very heavily implied to feel some manner of regret for killing (and likely raping) his mother—dancing around the topic, never going into detail of what he did to her unlike his father, and even at one point nothing that he'd take it back if he could and whispering that "I hurt my mom...in the kitchen...she didn't do anything to me."
- Lastly his loyalty to Manx...I can't brush this off as just a self-serving desire to reach Christmasland. Bing regularly refers to Manx with genuine admiration, is driven to tears when Manx pokes mild fun at him, cheerfully leaps at a chance to cut out his own tongue to show his loyalty (even if Manx stops him first), and his last line to Manx, even as Manx is ditching him, is to scream "MY LIFE FOR YOU!" in an obvious reference to Stephen King's fanatically loyal character the Trash Can Man. Hell, Bing might even genuinely think he's helping the kids Manx kidnaps—he flat out notes to himself that Manx believing child abusers belong in hell "is a fine thing to say; it rang with moral certainty." Bing's primary goal is to get to Christmasland and receive "what's coming to me!" but at no point is his furiously powerful loyalty to Manx and Manx's goal ever truly subverted.
Sad one to cut for what a bastard he is, but I say he's gotta go. Seems sincerely fucked up in the head; might regret killing his mom; loyalty to Manx hard to question...
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
The wifi here sucks
Yeah cut Bing, the mom thing esspecially stands out to me.
Does he count in the TV series? Nevermind, the trope page says he has a Heel Realization
Edited by papyru30 on Sep 20th 2022 at 7:37:50 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
The Draftsman of Doom
Cut Partridge.
Feels good, don't it?
Professor Gigachad
I'm not sure about the insanity but the other two sound very disqualifying, Cut Bing.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Bing
Devereaux and Brand
Cut Bing
Yes to the Hardy Boys folks and cut Bing. Great work turning that one up Rav!
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Well shit that's annoying, I guess cut Bing
Anyone oppose me doing a rewrite for Reiss?
Original
- Complete Monster:Jonathan Reiss is a brilliant scientist and Nobel Prize laureate who makes a living designing and selling biological and chemical weapons to wealthy criminals from around the world. When he learns of the existence of Pandora's Box and the plague it carries, he sells the disease to his clients under the pretense that it's merely a highly potent bioweapon, but in reality it will spread across the world, killing anyone without access to the antidote he plans to create and provide only to the wealthiest and most powerful. In his quest to find Pandora's Box Reiss is merciless, even threatening to have a man's children infected with a deadly disease if he doesn't cooperate, and even as he dies he makes one last attempt to grab the Box.
Rewrite
- Jonathan Reiss is a Nobel Prize scientist who also makes a lucrative career from creating and selling biological weapons to criminals across the globe. Hearing of the existence of Pandora's Box, Reiss sets to obtain it no matter what, showcasing a ruthless streak as he forces a man to help him by threatening his children with a deadly disease. Reiss' true goal with the box is to use it's highly volatile plague to spread across the globe, killing billions while lining his pockets from the wealthy and powerful as they buy the antidote from him.
Thoughts?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
I'm not really sure why we need the rewrite?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I just thought it was written weirdly (genuinely not trying to disrespect the original proposer of it) and the detail of him trying to reach for the box as he dies is pretty much useless since he's being dissolved alive and he only makes a fleeting grasp at it, not some mad attempt to open it as a final "fuck you". Not gonna kick up a fuss if people are content with the original.
Also didn't we approve the video for Death a while back? What happened with that?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Swear some people suggested trims to it?
Edited by WetFlannels on Sep 20th 2022 at 5:04:01 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Professor Gigachad
It's too long.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
to Ray Garner, Jonah K. Devereaux, and Major Orville Brand.
Cut Bing Partridge/the Gasmask Man.
Admittedly, I think the original entry is fine as is and doesn't require a rewrite.
The wifi here sucks
Not feeling the rewrite either
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
The Brazillian Dog!
to the rewrite
The Emperor of Evil!
Had a chat with Scraggle, on a potential villain from Stardust the Super Wizard.
What's The Work?
Stardust was discussed years back by Scraggle and we already have 3 approved from the comic series. This bizarre series is about the titular main hero with a warped view on justice and punishments, he'll either send you to space prison, murder you in creative ways, or put you in a And I Must Scream fate for whatever horrible crime you've done (which is what happened with CM Gyp Clip, and non CM Dr. De-Structo). The hero is also a complete God-Mode Sue where none of the villains have any chance at beating or overpowering him, so usually the conflict of each issues being resolved pretty quickly with the battle with the bad guys being anti-climatic.
As stated before, we got three C Ms, all which are Omnicidal Maniacs, here's a -potential fourth villain who might count.
Who's The Mad Giant?
The Mad Giant of the Gobi Desert (who dead ass looks like a stereotypical wrestler) is the main antagonist of issue 4 of the comic series. As the name implied, he is madman seeking to destroy the world. Why? Because of the abolishment of slavery which ruined his powers over "savage slaves". So, the Giant decided to dig a deep hole in the ground leading to the center of the Earth which he pumps powerful chemicals within the whole. The Giant's goal is to pump enough chemicals to set off volcanic eruptions and burst open the Earth and engulf the world and end all life.
The Mad Giant starts with Chicago as the first to be destroyed, and tries to cause more volcanic eruptions on numerous places across the world. Once Stardust comes to save the day, The Giant orders his goon, Kamet, to use the Anti-Ray Equipment on the hero which has no effect on the hero of course. Once his machine (whatever he was using to achieve his goal) was destroyed, he tries to murder Stardust for foiling his cataclysmic goal. Stardust just beats him with one punch, and sends him to the "Planetary Police".
Mitigating Factors
Does being an Omnicidal Maniac just because slavery has been abolish even remotely excusable?
Heinous Standards
I'mma be frank, the heinous standards is insane. Almost all the villains (who have little redeeming qualities due to little development in character) try to kill thousands on a daily basis, usually from trying to destroy a city or two, with alien invaders tried to enslave the human race more than once. Rip-The-Blood tries to start a World War out of pure Greed fails the heinous standards, Skullface (supposed to be a freaking run in the mill Mobster) tries a bunch of cops and civilians and bombards a city with bombs and a gas fails the heinous standards, The Demon who is a Mad Scientist who killed 2,000 people and plans to destroy several cities also fail the heinous standards.
The closest the series get to a Big Bad are the Fifth Colum who appear in 3 issues, tried to lead a violent invasion of America to destroy democracy yada yada, yet aren't remotely heinous enough. The Leader, Yew Bee, barely pass the heinous standards and it doesn't help he only appears in one issue and gets defeated quickly.
The only ones who do count are Omnicidal Maniacs such as Super Fiend, Gyp Clip, and planet destroying Moloka. Now with Giant? I talked with Scraggle on him, and looking at him and Gyp Clipp I think he could pass. Like Gyp, he's the only fellow with fuck all resources to try to end all life on Earth. Most of the bad guys either have an army with vast weaponry and equipment (this includes the gangsters too somehow). The Giant is just a big guy with a goon, with only a lab in a desert with a drill machine thing he uses to pump chemicals with and that's it. I say he's on the same league as Gyp, especially when The Giant's plan is to destroy the world with volcanos because he can't have slaves no more.
Stardust for all his brutality to his rogues gallery doesn't apply to the standards, all the bad guys deserved it one way or another and the story treats it as such (he is supposed to be seen as the hero after all).
Final Verdict
I'll leave it up to you, I'm leaning on a though. Also thanks to Scraggle over the discussion on The Giant btw.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Sep 20th 2022 at 12:40:57 PM
Yes to the Giant. Literally by the skin of his teeth but he's the only other guy who tries to go for planetary destruction in the soup of bad guys there.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Giant
Figure I might as well do this guy first as the dude from the Operation Phoenix trilogy will take a bit. From Hardy Boys casefiles no. 7 Deathgame. Anyway this one concerns an insane military general named Hamerlock kidnapping teenagers to turn then into soldiers. He has a strange sense of honour so is not our candidate. That dishonour goes to his right hand man.
Who is Major Orville Brand?
During the Vietnam war, Hamerlock rescued Brand and saved his life, assuming that by doing something like that Brand would be grateful out of a sense of honour. He was wrong.
Anyway the two found a teenager retreat called Ultimo Survival Camp. Hamerlock and Brand kidnap them the poor and take advantage of them. Turning then into child soldiers. And those that we'll don't like it are hunted down by Hamerlock and Brand. Anyway Brand captures Joe and Frank after they search for their kidnapped friend. He beats the crap our of them and they end up with others as part of Brand and Hamerlock's hunt.
Their Hamerlock hunts them "Colonel zardoff style". Brand betrays Hamerlock and reveals that we'll Hamerlock wanted to create this unit to act as a strike force to protect people....Brand is a greedy prick. And is going to use them as part of a military strike for south American dictator San Marcos to keep him in power. Anyways Hamerlock is stunned that Brand betrayed him and is now planning to ice him.
"I saved your life," he said.
"That was a long time ago," Brand replied. "You couldn't possibly expect subservience forever."
"Subservience, no, but loyalty, yes!" Hammerlock snarled.
"Brand believes in money more than loyalty, right, Major?" Joe asked sarcastically. He was thinking of the documents Frank had found.
"It's the San Marcos business, isn't it?" Joe continued. "Hammerlock was telling the truth when he denied knowing anything about that mercenary deal." He shook his head. "He is a psychopath, who thinks there are simple answers to complex world problems. But at least he's not out to make big bucks from them."
"Is that true, Orville?" Hammerlock asked. His face became unreadable again.
"Why don't you give me a harangue about honor, Colonel? Honor is an illusion. It's in your mind. It's a disease that has prevented you from seeing how what we created could make us rich men!" Brand's anger seemed to get the better of him, and Joe was afraid he might open fire.
Anyway Frank tackles Brand. And in the commotion, Frank and joe are able to capture them. Arresting them.
'Redeeming qualities?
Nah. Brand is like as you can tell just a douchebag. He betrays the guy who saved his life.
'Heinous standard?'
Unique. Not the biggest body count but he passes on sheer scuminess. He is the worst "Dragon" type in case files being explicitly worse than his boss. They kidnap disadvantaged kids and turn them into child soldiers, the hunting the most dangerous game. And Brand has a) trying to kill the guy who saved his life b) planning a military strike to take over a country and keep a brutal dictator in power.
'Conclusion?
This just leaves the main bad guy of Operation Phoenix.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."