Unsure on Father Jonas. If he's trying to appease God's will to have non sexualy corrupt Teenagers, than technicly he could still be a Well-Intentioned Extremist even if his methods are wrong (like most extremists). He does seem to have a motive instead of just randomly killing people like some other sasher villains. I also think he may fail the heinouess standard set by Mary Lou and Richard Fenton (even if the latter does not qualify).

Do Zhang and Zhu care about each other?

jjj

The two of them have barely interaction and Shaoyun outright considers him pathetic and no great loss. I'd say there's no love lost there.

@ Lightysnake, just wanted to be sure. A CM can not care about anyone.

Speaking of which...

Villainous Friendship: Albert Wesker and William Birkin of the Resident Evil series, at least as much as two sociopaths could be. Placed in charge of one of Umbrella's facilities, the two were noted to be close and worked together on many occasions. Birkin actively tried to assist Wesker in stealing research from Umbrella. Birkin's death at the hands of Umbrella agents was noted to have made wesker very cross, something rare for a man so infamious for using and than throwing people away.

We decided that Wesker was a CM, right?

jjj

They seem to cofnuse 'good buddies' with 'work together often'

Wesker was mad because they killed a guy whose genius was invaluable, not because they took away his pizza buddy

edited 19th Oct '14 11:32:51 AM by Lightysnake

31738: Did we ever discuss this Richard Fenton guy? BTW, Jonas seems to me more of a Knight Templar.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

@ ACW, yes, Fenton is a pedophile teacher who becomes attracted to a female student. When she rejects his advances, he goes to her home and kills her family. After his arrest, he breaks out of prison and goes after her, killing anyone in the way. We voted him a no because he was too generic.

jjj

Ah, here. I'm not so sure...I've not seen the films, but it seems like Mary Lou was a bitch in life and a bitch in death, while the other dude was a pedophile-turned-killer...

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

I'm already regretting it, but.... Let's talk about Salo or the 120 Days of Sodom, shall we? (Haven't had the stomach to read the book, so I'm sticking to the already disgusting film-version) The previous entry was deleted some while ago because it listed all 4 Libertines at once. After rewatching the movie (yeah, I'm crazy) I have come to the conclusion that they don't count as a group, but that Duke Blangis as an individual counts. Let's start.

Who is Duke Blangis and what has he done?

Duke Blangis is the leader of the Quartet of Libertines, consisting of him, his brother 'The Bishop', 'The President' and 'The Magistrate', and is pretty much the closest thing to a Big Bad the movie has. He is the head of the whole disgusting operation, he comes up with the planning and he is the one who commands everything. The movie starts with him instigating the idea of capturing 18 young teenagers in order to live out their sickest desires. He selects his objects of desire by forcing them to undress before them and particularly mocks one young girl whose mother was killed in front of her eyes when she was captured. After arriving at the palace where the *orgy* is taking place, he doesn't even pretend to hide his intend and tell the victims them that they are already dead to the world outside and nobody will come for them. Througout the whole film, he always finds new ways for him and his friends to torture (both physically and mentally) the teenagers. From forcing them to go into humiliating positions over raping them to force-feeding them feces there is almost nothing that he doesn't take joy in. Oh, and did I mention that not even his own daughters are safe from it? Part of the *ritual* the 4 Libertines underwent was marrying their daughters to each other. He in particular marries one of his daughters to his own brothers. During the time at the palace, the daughters are always forced to lay on the ground naked, or act as servants. During one of the meals, one of Blangis's daughters is brutally raped in front of the whole crowd by one of the soldiers, but Blangis just laughs at her. In the end, nearly all the teenagers (including the daughters) are gruesomely murdered personally by him and the Libertines, through methods such as scalping, burning or having their tongues and eyes cut out. Hanging is among the nicer deaths.

Are his actions heinous by the story-standarts?

I sure as hell think so. While it is true that there are 3 other Libertines, he is the leader of the group and comes up with all the fucked up stuff. The others often even just parrot what he says.

Does he have any redeeming qualities?

Well, one could argue that he and his 3 buddies sometimes sit together and having some pseudo-philosophic chit chat about the deeper meaning of the atrocities they commit, but it becomes clear that this is just some way to kill time for them, and they never show any real affection to one another. One could also argue that he didn't kill the very few teens who obeyed his rules, but this is just for personal amusement and because he enjoys his feet being kissed, not out of friendlyness. So no, not a single one at all.

Does he have a Freudian Excuse?

Nada. On the contrary he makes it perfectly clear (sometimes literally) several times that he does it solely for amusement and that he's proud of it too.

edited 19th Oct '14 12:45:39 PM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian

Oh this film...Duke Blangis. Let's try and get this decided fast.

No. He's no worse than anyone else there. It's all based on de Sade "everyone sucks" philosophy

Well like I said, I don't know the Source Material, but in the Film he clearly stood out as the instigating leader of the group.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian

Isn't there shit-eating in the movie? How could the book be worse?

If he's the CLEAR leader, I'll give a .
Has anyone seen all the Prom Night movies? I'm giving a for Fenton. Pedophile, multiple killer, and killer of the main characer's younger brother. How does he compare vis-a-vis Mary Lou?

edited 19th Oct '14 1:56:38 PM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Oh good, no one counts. That's even better.

Hey, we all know Really Bad Shit (sorry) happens in that movie. No reason a discussion can't take place, just as long as we keep it a bit more abstract than usual. Easy , really - from what I understand the plot is self contained enough that they're the only villains, so they set the heinous standard by default. I know we have a "no groups" rule, but if each member of the group counts on their own...

Just watched Prom Night IV (it was on my list anyway), having watched the other three earlier this month. Aside from the school having the same name there's no evidence of continuity between the other films and 4 at all, just like with the first and 2+3. I will, however, give Jonas a mostly because the film to me seems to lean towards "demonic possession" rather than "ordinary hard-to-kill psycho" (though I acknowledge it's not the only possible interpretation).

As for other candidates, a to Tanz, Nekron (always such a trustworthy name), Jabou, Shaoyun, and Blangis.

I will say to Tanz, Nekron, Zhang and Zhu.

I don't know if anyone remembers the Archie comics version of TMNT that was around from 1988 to 1996. That started off as an adaption of the 1987 cartoon, but quickly became its own continuity and became one of the darker things Archie ever published. The villains were allowed to be more evil then the 1987 cartoon. Krang wipes out a species of aliens in a flash back, though considering Krang was never used past the early issues, he may be overshadowed by other villains. Villains created for the comic like Mr. Null and Queen Maligna are pretty nasty, given how light hearted the comics was at times (at had a very cartoonish art style). Maligna was a Hive Queen who may have cared about her "children", though she did kill one of them for petty reasons. Mr. Null didn't seem to care about anyone but himself though. I will try to do a write up on him:

Who is Mr. Null? What has he done?

Mr. Null was a villain created for the Archie TMNT series. He was an odd character to say the least, a bit of an over top the Straw Character. He started off as a faceless Corrupt Corporate Executive who ran several environmentally destructive and immoral businesses. The Turtles first encounter one of enterprises, a mining operation that was using a remote South American tribe as slave labor. He ran another business where dumped toxic waste in the ocean. However he doesn't make his first full appearance until he decides to sell the Earth to a bunch of genocidal insect like aliens that want to destroy the human race and make the Earth habitable for them. They send down eggs with their young larvae that hatch and start eating everything in their path. Null is helping these aliens, because he thinks he can make more profits by taking his business off world and make it intergalactic. He also find out he is part demon, with little horns growing out of his head. After that alien invasion is thrawted by both the Turtles and their allies, the Mighty Mutanimals, Null wanted revenge on them. He gained control over the Horsemen of the Apocalypse and used them to capture the Turtles and the Mutanimals. He planned on killing them by slowly electrocuting them, wanted to force one of his former henchman who betrayed him for moral reasons, to pull the switch that would kill them. Null is also a real creep, despite the name the Mutanimals had humans as members and associates and Null would often say he would rather have the female captives become part of his "harem" rather then be killed. After Null was defeated again, he set up an ambush where his cyborg henchmen managed to kill most of the Mutanimals. Mondo Gecko (who was originally human) had a human girlfriend that Null mind raped and brain washed, turning her into his slave (she wears a far more reveling outfit and calls master, it is heavily implied that she is his Sex Slave). He tries to help the same group of aliens destroy humanity again, thinking he could succeed with the Mutanimals out of the way.

Is he heinous by the standards of the story?

He has got some decent competition, Krang is presented as far more ruthless and even genocidal in this series, Queen Maligna, the alien he sold Earth to was a genocidal tyrant that wanted to destroy humanity. However Null aided Maligna in her schemes for selfish reasons and had his own crimes, which include slavery, both sexual and labor and just general sadism.

Any Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?

His motives range from greed, lust and For the Evulz, so he has no sympathetic motives and no Freudian Excuse. The only thing that could be mitigating is his nature, he is a demon who seems to become more demonic and less human with every evil act he commits, his true nature is ambiguous (there are hints he may Satan, but that is never confirmed) and the comic never comes out and says he has no moral agency. Do we assume demons have no moral agency?

Null is a bit of tricky character to judge, he is very hands off, content to allow his allies and minions to do most of his dirty work for him and is true nature is ambiguous. He is also a bit of an over the top Straw Character. But he is still a very nasty villain in a fairly light hearted series.

edited 19th Oct '14 6:09:52 PM by TheOverlord

Didn't we already vote no on him?

I don't think so. I mentioned him before, in passing, but I never submitted a proposal on him or put him up for voting. We voted no Mirage Baxter Stockman, same franchise, different character, different continuity.

edited 19th Oct '14 6:22:08 PM by TheOverlord

Just out of curiosity, given his actions so far, what would make Skullface not a CM?

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

Being given someone he cares about, for one.

Or showing remorse, or any number of things.

Or having a sufficient Freudian Excuse with his falling out with Cipher, or Big Boss going full villain and eclipsing him in heinousness (which is something that very much a possibility given the preview material for the game and how Big Boss pretty much already has one child soldier on staff already, as well as his actions in the original Metal Gears).

I will note though that at this point Skull Face wouldn't count as he is less heinous than Volgin was. Volgin was a rapist (the cassette tapes imply SF made Chico rape Paz, but Volgin's rapes of EVA are much more strongly implied with her scars from his treatment and bringing her to his room), absolute sadist (Skullface's tortures are break people's will to further his own goals, Volgin tortures people for the enjoyment first and any information second and none of his tortures in Snake Eater get him any information. In fact Snake got more information out of Volgin despite being the one tortured), a much higher body count with roughly the same level of resources (Volgin nuked a research facility, killed his own men with the Shagohod and in his backstory personally beat to death every POW he had, making sure to take off the blindfold first so he could see the terror in their eyes, Skullface so far has Mother Base's staff on his head, plus Paz and the attempted murder of our hero, which obviously we can't hold against him because that's what villains are for).

edited 20th Oct '14 12:36:29 AM by Shaoken

Fails the heinous standard? Sticking a bomb INSIDE Paz seems to meet that (besides, we have Sundowner, and I'm not sure he's as heinous).

Wiseman fortunately there's no question about.

edited 20th Oct '14 1:29:02 AM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

How exactly is the location of the bomb any modifier of heinousness? Attempting to blow someone up with a bomb is a very heinous act; wether it's stabled to their back or lodged in their stomach doesn't really change that fact. Contrast Volgin whose bomb-related activities involve a fucking nuke against his own loyal countrymen for no other reason than to test out his new toy. Yes I say Skullface fails the heinous standard when compared to Volgin, whom is on the exact same level as him in terms of resources and influence.

Sundowner is a different case being on a much lower scale than the Volgin, so he doesn't have any particular bearing on this discussion.

Oh, right, resources and power and such. Forgot about that.

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