During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The Emperor of Evil!
@Emerald ACW gave a response a while ago actually.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Jun 5th 2022 at 9:08:11 AM
Bellatrix Lestrange in all likelihood meets the heinousness standards, but there's the question of her relationship with Tommy-boy.
You think it’s time to put this video of Wolf Spider on now?
Professor Gigachad
So guys I have a possible new thing that could be added to Professor Zundapp's writeup. In this image you can see in the background what looks like crushed up cars in the same way that Leland Turbo was killed. What do you guys think.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Too vague as to what's going on.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Edgar
Agreed with Future about the image
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
The Emperor of Evil!
to the Wolf Spider video.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
@EmeraldEmperor Sounds like a genuine case of Villainous Friendship: it may have been started with a shared love of depravity but given how much your potential candidate went out of their way to honor their buddy's memory, that relationship still genuinely meant something to them.
Contrast that with several murder buddies (and I admit I do have some issues with one of the current keepers in such a category) that keep here that are In Love with Your Carnage with insufficient depth to say more about it.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jun 5th 2022 at 6:40:35 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Lies and Violence!
x8 Whoops, sorry, didn't see that. Yes, it's the big one I've been working on. The problem is that since the "friendship" is posthumous, we can really only infer the details from context clues. The Dead King frequently and fondly reminisces over Triumphant and her "clarity," implying an authentic Villainous Friendship, but seeing how the latter is exclusively considered by everyone else as "Literal Worst Person Ever," it seems more likely he liked her for the carnage. There's enough evidence to back up both interpretations. Further muddying the waters is that by the very nature of the series, it's genuinely possible to like or hate someone depending entirely on how good or evil they are, so an ancient evil like him would absolutely gain respect for what's essentially, again, Stalinmussolintler.
I was mostly just wondering if the palace thing pushed it overboard, just because it's such an egregious declaration of fond memories . He does later open it up to a newly ascended god when they come to visit, so (fridge logic here) it's entirely possible he decided to keep that place reserved for those he considers peers and just hasn't had one stop by in centuries. But with what little information we get, the whole situation is incredibly vague and hard to get an accurate read on.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jun 5th 2022 at 10:48:39 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I have another X Files villain. It's a villain Mulder and Scully have seen twice, but in different forms.
Who is he? What has he done?
Satan is the incarnation of all evil and commits atrocities in two separate forms.
- "All Souls": He first appears in the form of a social worker named Aaron Starky. His ultimate goal in this episode is to capture all 4 of the deformed children (revealed to be Nephalim) and claim their souls as his own. He's first seen hindering a priest named Father Gregory's attempt to adopt the second Nephalim to protect them so he [Starky] can take her soul for himself, only for a mysterious man (later revealed to be a Seraphim sent by God) to get to the girl first. Later, Starky manipulates Mulder into helping him find the three Nephalim, but is once again too late when the Seraphim saves her. However, Mulder and Scully find Father Gregory near the site of the third girl and take him in for questioning only to yield no results. When the two agents leave Gregory in the room alone, Starky shows up and interrogated Father Gregory into revealing the fourth Nephalim's location by burning him alive. Because he couldn't go into the church, he tricks Scully into finding the fourth girl. When Scully sees Starky's shadow, she sees that he's the devil, finds the girl hiding under the stairs and takes her away from Starky. Starky then demanded her to bring the girl to him, only for Scully to disobey and give the final Nephalim to the Seraphim. When the Seraphim claims the girl, Starky disappears. Starky wanted to claim the souls of the Nephalim so he can claim his "victory" over God.
- "Signs and Wonders": the Devil returns in the form of a mild mannered reverend named Samuel Mackey. Mackey is revealed to be the father of Gracie O'Connors baby and when Jarred, her boyfriend found who the father was since he [Jarrod] was infertile (as revealed in a medical document), he went to confront Mackey only for Mackey to brutially murder him by summoning angry snakes to kill him in his own car when he locked it. Later when the church parishioner, Iris pieced together what was going on, Mackey first attacks her by manifesting a staple remover into a snake and then finishes her off in the bathroom when she attempts to treat the wound by killing her with a mob of snakes. Mackey attempts to frame Gracie's O Connor's pastor father, Enoch O Connor so the agents could suspect him of the killings since Enoch was a snake handler. When Enoch was put in a jail cell after his death attempt on Scully, Mackey summons the snakes to kill him, only for it to fail since Enoch survives. Later, Enoch kidnaps Gracie and takes her to his church so she can give birth but it's revealed that Gracie's "baby" wasn't babies, but rather snakes, meaning Mackey impregnated Gracie with snakes. Enoch goes to confront Mackey at his church and even attempts to kill him, only for Mulder to shoot Enoch and put him down. Enoch gives Mulder encouragement to piece everything together, leading for Mulder to confront Mackey in the other room. Mulder pieces together who the reverend really was and in response, locks Mulder in the same room with him and attempts to kill him via snakes. Once Scully gets into the room, Mackey is nowhere to be found. Revealed to have run to Connecticut, Mackey becomes the pastor of a new church and reveals himself as the Devil by eating the mouse via a snake that comes out of his mouth, remaining completely remorseless of all that he's done.
Mitigating Factors?
It's shown that despite having two bodies, they are confirmed to be the forms the Devil takes (his incarnations). He's shown to have a clear moral agency as he spends both episodes manipulating people to his whim.
But no. No mitigating factors
Heinous Standard?
His first episode has him manipulating the agents into helping him find the Nephalims and burns a pastor alive to reveal the location of the last Nephalim, all to claim victory against God.
His second episode has him brutally murdering two people when they discover who he actually is, impregnated a girl with snakes that causes her immense pain and gets her hospitalized, attempts to frame a pastor as a scapegoat and attempts to murder said pastor and Mulder with the same methods he used to kill his victims and remains unremorseless when he smuggly eats a mouse with one of his snakes.
Verdict?
On the edge with this one, its up to you guys.
Edited by TBmacho22 on Jun 5th 2022 at 8:36:07 AM
I hate spoilers
Regarding Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War, I think we should cut Queen Hilda. In Fire Emblem Heroes, her confession dialogue has her grieving over the loss of her family (if you get her to 5* Level 40), showing that Even Evil Has Loved Ones.
This trait is not exclusive to Heroes. There were implications of this even in her home game:
Professor Gigachad
That doesn't sound great. Who did her?
Abstain on Satan, don't have any issue but something feels off.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
I know Hilda was brought up alongside a few others back in 2013, at the very least.
Edited by dragonfire5000 on Jun 5th 2022 at 9:09:22 AM
I hate spoilers
Her feelings were retroactively expanded upon in Heroes, showing that she genuinely loves her family, even if she doesn't love anyone else.
Edited by 227someguy on Jun 5th 2022 at 12:09:13 PM
Everyone look at my sandbox
Professor Gigachad
If that is true then I guess Cut unless a reason for why she does count comes up.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
So, I' not really comfortable cutting her from IV for dialogue in Heroes which is a Muso game and not actual plot.
In Genealogy, Hilda is nothing but cold to her family and treats them as meal tickets. It's like Kefka being given decent qualities in Final Fantasy Dissidia. Essentially it's a non-canon thing from like 20 years after IV came out.
I'll check Satan soon, gimme a bit.
Edited by Lightysnake on Jun 5th 2022 at 9:13:32 AM
Professor Gigachad
According to my research the Heroes game is meant to be canon.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Which research?
Professor Gigachad
It was admittedly kind of difficult because a lot of the stuff I found was fans deciding themselves on if the game is canon or not. The most I could find was Wikipedia listing it as a spin-off and not noncanon.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
I hate spoilers
For what it's worth, Heroes was retroactively considered for Lyon being an MB judging by his write-up:
Yeah, 'm seeing it's a big crossover game, but...the canonicity is a little dubious in my eyes for that. I think Someguy is totally right to bring this up...but ultimately, it's hard for me to see a 25 year later Gatcha game as canon to Geneaology, unless we get confirmation.
satan...mm...unfortunately, I'm kinda leaning no? X-files is bad and he's not quite there. Azazel, for one, actively pushed an entire town to human sacrifice.
Professor Gigachad
That is something I am wondering if Heroes was used to get Lyon up as an MB then it would be weird to not cut Hilda for showing redeeming qualities in the game.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
The wifi here sucks
I don't have strong feelings on the Fire Emblem stuff but I do think that the 2 threads should be consistent in how they handle it's effects in characters counting. If we think that Lyon should be up because of what he does in Heroes then we should cut Hilda and if we want to keep Hilda up then we should cut Lyon.
Leaning no on Satan for heinousness issues
Edited by papyru30 on Jun 5th 2022 at 10:46:25 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
I think I could go either way, personally. I think it's worth making the ep and letting us discuss it then
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?