During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Red Death
The Draftsman of Doom
Sure to Doc.
Screw it. I may as well do the re-litigation now, since it was released in March '06.
What is the work?
Stay Alive is, of all things, a 2006 horror film distributed by Walt Disney Studios (albeit, not a part of Disney Canon, as cool as that would be), starring John Foster and Frankie Muniz.
When a beta tester dies in real life the same way he dies in the titular game, his friends decide to play the game, which leads them to the film's version of Elizabeth Báthory, who instead of terrorizing her native Hungary—as she was historically accused—terrorized Louisiana when she was still alive.
Who is the Blood Countess, and what has she done?
So, this guy, Loomis Crowley, plays the titular video game, in which his character dies. He checks on his roommates, who are playing *ahem* "pigs in a blanket" (I shit you not, roomie is wearing a pig mask during sex). Loomis has found their corpses within the game, and the couple dismiss his concern.
Loomis awakens from a bad dream, gets a beverage from the fridge, is chased by a malevolent spirit (the Blood Countess) up the stairs where he finds the couple dead before dying suspended from a chandelier.
Hutch MacNeil receives a call at work about his friend, Loomis's death. At the funeral, he receives several possessions belonging to Loomis, and encounters a photographer named Abigail.
Later, at a bar, Hutch's friends October and Phineus (the Bantum siblings) look through the items and find Stay Alive, and they decide to play it later, despite Hutch's reluctance.
At home, Hutch is committing the heinous sin of washing Solo Cups (TM)(!), when ominous noises happen. Suddenly, out of nowhere, Hutch's friend Swink Sylvania pops into view of the porthole.
Once everyone else arrives, they discover that the game requires the players (in addition to Hutch's boss, Miller Banks, who connects via his office) to read a passage from "Elizabeth's Prayer":
Subsequently, a voiceover narrates how the countess murdered several young women on Gerouge Plantation, followed by the group fighting off a horde of the undead in a cemetery.
Miller enters the tomb of the countess with his character, finds the Countess' diary and portrait, then discovers a torture chamber.
One of the game's mechanics is the presence of roses as a deterrent against the undead. Unfortunately for Miller, his character is out of roses, and dies in the game at Báthory's hands.
Shortly after hearing noises and noticing his unused controller vibrate, Miller gets stabbed by the same figure from before (again, the Countess) in a similar manner to his game character's death.
Phineus discovers Miller's character's corpse in the game, makes stupid comments on it, then when he gets called on his insensitivity, decides to play the game alone.
Phineus pauses the game before his character can die. While he is standing next to a car, he is nearly hit by a truck.
Meanwhile, Hutch has been looking at the police reports of the deaths, and compared them to the deaths within the game, finding that all of the deaths were similar between the game and real life.
October concurs with Hutch, and explains how the video-game is accurate to the (in universe) history of Gerouge plantation and Elizabeth Báthory, namely her habits of hunting for victims in a black carriage, gutting them with silver shears, and her habit of breaking mirrors out of frustration with her aging appearance, before suggesting that the Countess has returned from the grave and is killing the gamers one by one, a suggestion which Hutch receives with skepticism.
When Phineus swerves to avoid figure and sticks his car in a tree, he gets out and waits for his friends to pick him up, only to be run over by a carriage.
A police officer ends up becoming the Countess' next victim, dying in an impromptu deathtrap in his car.
When October attempts to chase down the Countess at a construction site near Loomis' house, intending to nail her forehead three times and kill her for good, the Countess' ghost hangs her upside down and kills her; it turns out that the game can play itself once it starts.
Accordingly, while exploring what turns out to be Gerouge Plantation, Swink plays the game to distract the Countess, resulting in the Countess trying to kill Swink before his character dies in the game. Swink, having run into a rosebush, seemingly dies (but not really).
Hutch and Abigail enter the plantation tower to put the Countess down for the count, fighting off several ghosts before entering the chambers. Báthory attempts to attack Abigail and exsanguinate her, only to have three nails put in her forehead by Hutch.
The countess' actual corpse resurrects, and the nails fall out of her head, so Hutch fights her off by using a laptop's reflective surface before lighting the place on fire and seemingly eliminating the bitch. Abigail and Swink drag him out of the burning tower.
The movie ends with a bunch of people playing Stay Alive, potentially implying that the Countess may be back.
Mitigating Factors?
Offscreen villainy is not an issue, since the in-universe game is in-universe historically accurate, so we do get a glimpse of the Countess' past, plus we see ghosts of her victims and the relics from her past.Characterization is not such an issue, either, since the "prayer" from her diary establishes her as a vain, vicious, and prideful woman, with the broken mirrors and unfair play backing up the information that is given. Báthory even screams upon seeing a reflective surface she cannot break. She does occasionally show physical expressions, such as sadism and pride.
No tragic backstory is explored, nor is Báthory ever shown not to be in control of her actions.
Heinousness?
The Countess has gruesomely killed many people (scores at least, judging by the number of ghosts) in the past, and continues to do so via a possessed video-game.The only people who do anything else even remotely heinous are Hutch's father, who tried to kill his family under the suspicion his wife is cheating, Hutch himself for washing disposable dishes, and Phineus for licking controlers.
Verdict?
I believe she fails the heinousness standard, because she has to compete with an absolute heathen who washes disposable beverageware and a guy who licks his friend's controllers.… Seriously, folks, as she often is, Bloody Bess is a viable contender; and this is just the theatrical cut.
(~ACW: If you ask if Hutch qualifies, I swear…)
Also, since it's late, I think I'll count votes tomorrow.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I get what you're saying, and I appreciate that perspective.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Feb 1st 2022 at 2:40:32 PM
Still a no on this one. She's a bog standard slasher villain without an iota of personality. There's only so much I'm gonna allow from a diary playing with a generic slasher that could be replaced with a cardboard cutout.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Since the Red Death seems to have done well, and I had some encouragement. Here's a proposal for it's book counterpart-The Green Death, also known as Merciless.
What is the Work
How To Train Your Dragon a book series that the animated version was based off. Like the Red Death, the Green Death only appears in the first instalment of the series but The Green Death's backstory was also elaborated on in a later book.Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
Over a thousand years ago before the story, dragons and humans were at war with Merciless being the leader of the dragons trying to eradicate humankind. Foreseeing his own demise at the death of a Hiccup, Merciless sent one of his soldiers named the Wodensfang to kill him but he ended up snared in a tree. When Hiccup I found him, instead of killing him, he released him and befriended him. The Wodensfang revealed the dragon jewel to Hiccup I and he used the jewel to banish Merciless and cease the rebellion, creating a new era of peace between humans and dragons. Merciless later became a terror of the seas for the next 1000 years.
In the first book, Merciless ends up washed ashore on a bay on Berk due to a typhoon with another sea dragon which he devoured due to being near him. When Hiccup III tries to speak to him, he announces that he "Comes in peace but he's going to eat everyone anyway". This includes the Hooligans neighbours, the Meatheads who were also on the island. The hero's devise a plan to have Merciless and another sea dragon which had washed up on another shore- called the Purple death, fight each other and kill each other to save them all.
After Merciless and The Purple Death have a destructive fight with it ending them both seemingly dead... except Merciless reveals himself to be alive and in pure anger swallows Hiccup whole, revelling in the terror of the surrounding people. Inside his throat,after holding onto a roman lance that was apart of a group of romans he devoured , Hiccup places his helmet in two holes which released Merciless' flames. Hiccup escapes when Toothless makes Merciless sneeze. Merciless tries to incinerate all of the humans but finds himself unable to-leading him to end up exploding due to Hiccup's helmet.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Sapience is less of an issue here than the animated version since dragons are shown to have a fully developed language and can also learn to speak to humans and vice versa so that's not an issue.
He only goes through with the banishment because he's aware of the power of the jewel so that's out of self-preservation.
Unlike the second human vs dragon war, there isn't a reason elaborated why Dragons are trying to enact genocide on humans. When Merciless gets banished, the other dragons comply to the peace statement so it's similar to the film in that regard of them following him due to him out of fear.
"Does he care for dragons?" Obviously not since he devoured the smaller sea dragon that washed ashore with him because it was close to him even though it had shown no signs of hostility to him and he intended on devouring everyone on the island, dragons included.
His discussion is with Hiccup III is purely Faux Affably Evil since he's announcing that he's going to devour two islands worth full of people and no he doesn't allude to him doing this out of hunger because he then goes to burn them all alive anyway.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Well he attempted genocide on humans in a war 1000 years ago. Sunk countless ships and devoured their inhabitants (there's a segment of the first book where it elaborates him eating a roman ship.) And he was willing to devour 2 islands worth of dragons and humans before deciding to burn them all alive in the end so he acts more than a predator even after being banished. Best comparison for him is his successor Furious who also wanted to wipe out all human life but he's shown to truly care about his foster brother Hiccup II and his dragon brethren and even sacrifices himself in the end! Other sea dragons aren't shown to be attacking islands-even the Purple Death is shown to be content with just relaxing on the shore he was on.
Alvin and his mother are an unfair comparison to make because Merciless is a dragon the size of a mountain so he lacks the resources to plan schemes like them due to his size.
Comparing
Final Verdict?
If the film version can be seen as a I can't see why the book one can't be one but I'm open to discussion and it won't hurt me if he doesn't make it.
Edited by WetFlannels on Feb 2nd 2022 at 8:47:03 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
If she's bad enough I'm just gonna say yes there, I looked up previous discussions and last time she came up I think Newton gave good arguments that she had personality and this further confirms that for me. She docent sound like particularly Good Villain but it sounds like she counts
EDIT:Abstain on the above
Edited by Snoketrope on Feb 2nd 2022 at 12:42:06 PM
The First man
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Also I'm leaning for the Countess
Red Death and Merciless.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to the Doctor, leaning yes on Merciless.
Sung-Hwan, like this?
- Birdy the Mighty II/Evolution:
- Shogo, ultimately revealed to be Seichiro, Hikawa may be human but proves to be the worst of his kind and among the most wicked adversaries Birdy Cephon ever faced. An enigmatic World War II biologist whose youth was restored by Christella Revi's aid, Hikawa, under the guise of being a grandson to himself, plots to restore Imperial Japan and Take Over the World. Financed by a multi-governmental conspiracy to produce Super Soldiers, Hikawa happily abuses his supposed invulnerability to maximize suffering upon anyone unfortunate enough to fall into his clutches, often only for his amusement. No one is safe from Hikawa's cruelty, not even children or whole families, which he abducts and slaughters in droves to the disgust of everyone around him. A narcissistic madman with delusions of grandeur, in the end Hikawa accomplishes nothing but spreading suffering and turning all his allies against him.
- Bacillus, a parasitic alien who is originally a tenuous ally of Christella Revi, would prove to be far worse than he seemed. Investigating Birdy Cephon Altera following the death of fellow smuggler Geega, Bacillus develops an obsession with taking her body for himself. After being repelled in a battle, Bacillus is consumed by rage and abandons Revi for his self-serving interests. Murdering a police detective to assume a cover, Bacillus quickly forgoes any subtlety and massacres many policemen before instigating a high school shooting to draw Birdy out into the open.
- Birdy the Mighty II/Evolution:
Goku Black
Doctor and Mesmerciless.
You know I'll just switch to abstain On red death upon thinking about it.
Why are we discussing Bathory for the like 4th time? I thought the whole point of our rules was not to flood the page with Generic slasher villains. ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Bathory. Like generic horror villain with a backstory is something we rejected for a lot of the Syfy movie villains that came through here. I see no reason why this is different.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 2nd 2022 at 3:42:21 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
yeah just like that thanks ACW
also, while we're at it, can I request a one word edit to Bacillus' entry to not use Birdy's surname/full name as it sounds pretty awkward in hindsight, especially in that entry next to Hikawa's that uses her first and given last name. In the series, she's only ever either referred to as Birdy or Birdy Cephon outside of some very formal conversations
"Investigating Birdy Cephon Altera" to "Investigating Birdy Cephon"
Edited by Sung-Hwan on Feb 2nd 2022 at 4:44:08 AM
Fernando David Páez Contreras
to the Doctor and Merciless.
If this goes on like this, there might as well be a How to Train Your Dragon page.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
to Merciless
Okay so like, were told her motivation, we see things reflecting that motivation with the Mirrors and such and she's a Gruesome sadist.
She really doesn't sound compelling or anything of the Like but the only thing GDV(Ill use that term for the time being til that's cleared up) about her seems to be that she doesn't talk. IDK I guess my issue is that her potentially being generic should only be an issue for if her deeds are bad enough for the Genre, if they are above the Genres baseline? I dont, personally see an issue? We usually don't judge if the personality itself is unique or not from what I know, just if its there
Edited by Snoketrope on Feb 2nd 2022 at 4:16:52 AM
The First man
Bathory and Merciless
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sung-Hwan: I'll take care of that.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Abstaining on the How to Train Your Dragon candidates.
for the Blood Countess.
Also found out about this nice-looking indie gem coming out a week from now called Kingdom of the Dead. Gonna snag that.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Goku Black
I should note we rejected a bunch of Syfy horror villains who got the same things. A bunch of evil deeds and a backstory.
Don't see the difference between that and this.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The whole point of this thread was not to put up basic horror villains. That's what I meant by generic. Stuff like this a dime a dozen In the genre and I would really not flood the monster pages with examples like this when a character should be exceptional for the genre.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 2nd 2022 at 4:33:08 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Yes and that's what the Heinousness section is for, I've never seen it used in regards to the villain themselves needing to be Unique characterization wise, just that they would need to actually have characterization, we have like dozens of guys I'm sure we all find Boring as Hell.
Edited by Snoketrope on Feb 2nd 2022 at 4:53:00 AM
The First man
Yes to the Merciless, no to Bathroy again, I don't think a couple background notes make her any more remarkable than the choice to use a mythically infamous serial killer to flag to the audience we're dealing with someone or something nasty did.
The Doctor and Merciless. the Countess.
Goku Black
Yes this. It sounds like its just tacked on for a random monster.
X3: I mean this is a bog-standard horror villain who has some background attached to it. That's it.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 2nd 2022 at 5:07:38 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Also Lighty'll get to the brothers when he does but lemme but this off to clear my to do.
- Ichi the Killer (2001 film): The manga's chief villains remain utterly vile in this adaptation.
- Masao Kakihara is the insane, sadomasochistic right hand of the deceased Boss Anjō. Manipulated by the guilish Old Man into blaming a rival Yakuza, Kakihara violently tortures him before doing the same to one of the men responsible for covering up Anjō's death. After being kicked out of the syndicate out of fear for his insanity, Kakihara recruits Jiro and Saburo, brothers and equally sadistic corrupt police detectives who help him cut apart two more of the Old Man's associates for information. When finally facing down Ichi, Kakihara elates at the prospect of a bloody final battle challenging the one who could kill Anjō.
- Jiro and Saburo
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Also, pinging the following for writeups:
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Also switching to no on the Red Death.