During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Cleric of Banjo
Never seen The Good Son, so can't really judge.
I guess the thing I would say is that (at least from the previews of it). Henry seems to be presented as a very intelligent and calculating character who hides his pure evilness by presenting himself as "the good son" (granted, he's really Obviously Evil and not a particularly good actor).
It sounds like Rhoda does play the Deliberately Cute Child card to a degree, but also seems to do evil stuff without an understanding of standards of right or wrong.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
There's not really much to Henry due to wooden Home Alone-style acting and the movie having an Idiot Plot. He's a monster because he's just that flat of a character and the movie adjusts itself accordingly.
edited 7th Nov '13 9:29:53 PM by despoa
My issue is...if the work presents them as cognizant and all..
Mohiro Kitoh has an entire focus how kids are fully reasoned beings and cognizant of their actions. Hate to say it there...
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Many would say that's called "bad psychology," though.
True, but when has that ever stopped us before?
Just popping in to say I have no problem adding kids if they count. Also wanted to agree with Ambar in separating the Post-Crisis Reboot Monsters with The New 52 monsters.
edited 7th Nov '13 10:03:23 PM by VeryMelon
Does anyone have thoughts on the Cold Blood thing I mentioned @18766?
Alright, that's one vote to split up the page. To everybody else, I know it might seem like a pain, but at least as of right now, the New 52 has tried to give redeeming qualities to Brainiac. Think about that—Brainiac. A guy who has been nothing less than a monster since the Bronze Age (and I think you could make a case for Silver Age Brainiac too). If this is the sort of stuff we can expect in the future, I think that we're going to have split the page.
They're separate continuities no matter DC's "it's not a reboot" nonsense, so it makes sense to split them up since the two canons are not compatible at all.
As for child villains, I am not actually sure if they would lack moral agency even when done realistically. So I can't count that against them even in realistic portrayals, let alone more fictional ones.
Otherwise, I agree with the DC continuity split.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Brainiac...didn't someone say that he was, like, the STANDARD for Superman heinousness? I also vote ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to split then.
What about the Arc Rise Fantasia entry?
edited 8th Nov '13 2:02:02 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I will also vote to split up the New 52 from the former "main" DC universe. At this point they should just call it a reboot instead of pretending they fit together at all.
Found this on Harvester.
- Complete Monster: Mr. Pottsdam. From masturbating to his own daughter (which we get to see in all its splendor), to pawning Stephanie to you so he can marry into an unlimited supply of meat, to kidnapping Karin and burying her alive, all just to earn his way into the Lodge.
- Steve himself may become this at the end of the game if you choose the Bad Ending. The first thing he does upon being freed from the virtual reality is murdering some random woman and devouring her finger.
- The Harvesters who designed the Virtual Reality simulation of Harvest. They kidnapped two innocent people with the intent of driving one to being a serial killer and killing the other, simply to produce more killers. And its implied that Steve and Stephanie are not the first to experience Harvest, so there could be many more kidnapped by the Harvesters.
- Arguably, this extends to the Sergeant of Arms as well, who tasks Steve throughout the game. Considering he is the only character who knows from the start that Harvest is a simulation, he is well aware that Steve's tasks will have consequences such as killing people and causing Edna to commit suicide, yet gives them to Steve anyway.
- Steve's mom. She does nothing the entire game but bake cookies, completely neglect her newborn child, torture her husband, kill you if you let her know you know the aforementioned torturing happens, and smile and look on sweetly while Steve is electrocuted or beheaded.
I think it would be a good idea to split up the regular DCU examples and the new 52 examples. I heard Dr. Light was made a somewhat sympathetic in the New 52 universe, while he has been a complete Monster in Post Crisis DC since Identity Crisis.
I would say cut them all. Steve is the player character and Harvesters are a group. Mr. Pottsdam and Steve`s mom are really awful but they are simulations designed to be as screwed up as possible. I am also pretty sure the Sergeant at Arms is a simulation too.
edited 8th Nov '13 9:45:43 AM by TommyFresh
On American Dad!, someone ignored the warning message and added Ricky Spanish.
Also, the Creeper from Animalia has a more expanded entry on the YMMV page than on Monster.Western Animation.
Here's the YMMV entry:
- Complete Monster: the Creeper; before he arrived, all characters in the show had at least once displayed a softer side, and the worst you could get was greedy yet harmless tiger who beside having some jerk moments wasn't really evil. The Creeper, on the other hand, has no redeeming qualities, and is actually willingly to damage the Code and Animalia for his personal ambitions. His schemes included trying to start a war on Animalia, kidnap a child, and trick the protagonist and Livingstone in falling to their death when Livingstone offered to forgive him for his fault. He steals precious possessions from everybody just because he enjoys doing so. And as if it wasn't enough, he is also an Omnicidal Maniac wannabe...
And here's the Western Animation entry:
- Animalia: The Creeper is probably the nastiest weasel to ever exist in fiction. Trying to start a war in Animalia, attempting to kidnap Echo, tricking Alex, Zoe, Livingston and Fuschia into almost being blown away to their deaths by the wind of no return are but a few of the things he's done.
Which one works better?
On the AceAttorney page, could we spoiler the actual names of the CM characters? I mean, the games are murder mysteries. For Phantom, maybe we could spoiler the part that says "AKA Fake Detective Bobby Fulbright".
Also there are two links on the main page that go to the same place- one that says "Video Games and Visual Novels", and one that just says "Visual Novels".
edited 8th Nov '13 10:54:30 AM by Camberf
Yeah, I agree with the former, Camberf.
I also think the Creeper's YMMV entry is bette
No, the other one.
Zero No Tsukaima: I think Menbil might qualify on his own, but as a group, no.
Tenchi Muyo!: I'm not sure I'd qualify Kagato . Sure, he's heartless and stuff, but isn't really played up to be a horrifying villain as much as a major threat. Less heinous and more just doesn't care about what happens people, as long as it further his own goals. Most of his deeds are off-screen as well.
Check out my fanfiction!
Most of Kagato's past are detailed in the light novels and manga I believe. We also have flashbacks
And don't confuse being sadistic with being heinous. Enjoying being evil is not a requirement. Kagato isn't sadistic: he just has zero regard for anyone's life and sees no issue killing billions of people solely For Science! Even with that aside his attempted destruction of earth is the most heinous thing in series.
edited 8th Nov '13 12:00:51 PM by Lightysnake
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Try looking at the Ace Attorney page now 
Did we get rid of Banzai and Calisto?
Do the Ace Attorney and When They Cry pages look good to lock? If so, next up is Artix Entertainment
edited 8th Nov '13 12:06:10 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Nice, but you put Engarde as a bullet under von Karma. Also, did we decide that Quercus Alba qualified?
For Kagato. He's a traitorous backstabber, systematically tortured, broke the spirit of, and treated Ryoko like an animal since she was born for 4300 years, and murdered hundreds of populated planets (along with any Galaxy Police and useful cargo ships sent his way) out of callous pragmatism and scientific curiousity. The closest thing to a positive trait he displayed was showing respect for Tenchi for defeating him upfront.
Yeah, Alba was decided long back. Let's focus on rewriting who we need to
edited 7th Nov '13 9:11:49 PM by HamburgerTime