Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Here's some bad examples from the Digimon folder:

•Then there's Lilithmon, who orchestrated the fall of the Goddess' Warriors in the Sand Zone and then laughed about it to its sole survivor. And then killed him too. On top of that she almost murdered an innocent child for no reason other than shits and giggles.

No, Lilithmon is not a Complete Monster by any stretch. This is only singling one Kick the Dog moment as a reason for why she is. The second half of the series has her degenerate into Plucky Comic Relief, and has a genuine Odd Friendship with her partner Blastmon. This shows in their last appearances when they merge together, and even shed tears when admitting their feelings.

•Splashmon. Seriously - Cyber Land became a ghost town due to his actions. He killed every Digimon in it (he didn't directly kill them, but he set the motion as he absorbs negative energy from the citizens).

This admits that Splashmon didn't directly do the heinous deed, and said deed was Offscreen Villainy. To top it off, he's pretty damn incompetent, getting Out-Gambitted by Taiki like it was nothing.

•Analogman from Digimon World. To put things in perspective, a lot of people think he inspired Kurata.

Zero Context. And Kurata took it way further than this guy he's based on.

Similarly, this ought to be removed from D-Reaper's entry:

◦It's actually even creepier than Kurata

Nightmare Fuel does not equate to Complete Monster, so this shouldn't be a factor.

edited 18th Apr '13 5:45:44 PM by AnewMan

Correct. Now, a CM can be kindling for NF (and probably happens a lot), but the two don't relate.

Yeah, cut the first three there

Analogman was briefly discussed before, and someone back then put it best when they said he's one of those characters that exists solely for the game to have a Final Boss. He's mentioned a couple times as having some sort of corrupting influence that caused the Digimon to forget about their lives and turn feral, but we only actually see him personally in the very last scene, where he spouts off some rather generic "I'll conquer this dimension and enslave its inhabitants for GLORIOUS HUMANITY!" motives, sics a Machinedramon on you, then dies. Nuke him from orbit.

edited 18th Apr '13 5:39:42 PM by HamburgerTime

I know. And even that's not nearly as bad as Kurata. Analogman wanted to enslave all Digimon: Kurata wanted flat out genocide on all Digimon. And take over the Digital World as means of taking over the real world. Analogman is less than halfway to the surface of heinousness compared to Kurata. So yes, let's nuke 'im.

As for the other examples, we all know Myotismon, Piedmon, Malomyotismon, Kurata, and Milleniummon are keepers, right? So...I'm undecided about Neovamdemon and Gravimon, but I doubt they pass the heinous standard. I'm for D-Reaper, for Lucemon (though the entry is badly written), for Tactimon, and for Apollomon Whispered (who was worse than Bagramon or Darkknightmon combined and was so bad that the in-universe characters who didn't know he was a split personality hated Apollomon and celebrated his death.)

edited 18th Apr '13 5:53:00 PM by AnewMan

If one of them is a split personality he may not be able to qualify. What's the exact situation there. We tend to cut if played for genuine tragedy, or if handled even remotely realistically for that matter. See Tobias Hankel for a case of DID that we cut and Dark Marik for a case that we kept.

I would have to say no to the D-Reaper, by the way. It's a computer program, and it's morality is a pain to judge. When it doubt, edit out. The villains from the first and second seasons were discussed and agreed upon before. Milleniumon's entry is bad; what does he do?

@lightysnake

Seems kind of a shame that Flagg turned out that mundane. Neither here nor there for us though. As somebody who is a bigger Stephan King fan then I will ever be, can you provide a rewrite?

edited 18th Apr '13 6:00:47 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

How's the D-Reaper for moral agency? It's a cosmically-powered antivirus program that we're the "viruses" to, right? Doesn't sound like something you can judge by our morality

My thought as well. It's more of a case of A.I. Is a Crapshoot then this trope. The D-Reaper is just doing its job. It reminds me more of Antrax then it does of the thing from I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream.

I'm almost positive that the D-Reaper came up before and was shot down, because I specifically remember the "it's a computer program" argument carrying the day.

If one of them is a split personality he may not be able to qualify. What's the exact situation there. We tend to cut if played for genuine tragedy, or if handled even remotely realistically for that matter. See Tobias Hankel for a case of DID that we cut and Dark Marik for a case that we kept.

It's a personality that Bagramon programmed into the normally noble Apollomon. When Apollomon is in control of himself, he's red, when Whispered takes over, he's blue. Google image search "Apollomon" and you'll see it. I think this is a Marik case in that the second personality is an evil entity in his own right, one whom the good personality actively fights against.

Milleniumon's entry is bad; what does he do?

Pretty much screws over the entire Digimon multiverse, I think.

With D-Reaper, I'd say the original program from the Digital World does not count at all, but the part that split from it and invaded Earth might qualify because it's actively malevolent and sadistic in it's quest to purge the world of all life. It's primary method involves keeping Jeri imprisioned in it's core and feeding her Mind Rape visions to keep her depressed and unable to fight back, since Jeri's negativity was it's primary energy source. Granted, it still might not count because it only became this way in the first place due to feeding off of Jeri's negative emotions, and Jeri herself is obviously the furthest thing from a Complete Monster.

The YMMV page for Digimon Tamers says the ENTIRETY of the D-Reaper qualifies, only to be corrected by a statement that only the one on Earth qualified. Calling the entirety of D-Reaper one is blatantly untrue, since Yamaki actually does say that D-Reaper was just doing what it knew to be right but went overboard with it.

edited 18th Apr '13 6:09:23 PM by AnewMan

Going to have to say no to both of them. A personality that was programmed in lacks moral agency. If somebody created Whispered to be that way, then he has no choice in the matter. It's creator would be a better candidate.

As for the D-Reaper, I don't recall it being that sadistic. Additionally, seeing as any sadism, etc, stems from drawing on Jeri's angst, that just further complicates the already iffy state of its moral agency. With that much confusion about whether it has a choice in the matter, I can't condone its inclusion.

I know it's come up before. We've talked about the Digimon subpage a few times. Each time we seem to cut one or two and then get distracted by something else. I know that argument was made; I just don't recall who won.

EDIT: I need more then that to judge Milleniumon. What exactly is the nature of his crimes?

edited 18th Apr '13 6:11:10 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Eh, D-Reaper got a lot of "leaning on cuts", including from me. I'll say cut as well, though.

If that's the case it should probably have been axed already. Thank you.

I'm not all that familiar with the games, but I do know he's responsible for a Stable Time Loop that indirectly caused almost everything bad in the first two series except Etemon. What's his personality like; I always took him for rather bestial, myself.

edited 18th Apr '13 6:13:55 PM by HamburgerTime

Big Bad Bagramon created Whispered, but he isn't a Complete Monster either. He had a genuine liking for his brother, and gets reborn and redeemed as the old clockmaker in the following series/season.

Out of curiosity, what was the justification for Dark Marik staying?

Since Earth D-Reaper's case is ambiguous, and D-Reaper as a whole is just an out of control program, I vote for D-Reaper. Gonna also vote the same for Gravimon. Lucemon, Tactimon, and Neovamdemon can stay.

edited 18th Apr '13 6:22:52 PM by AnewMan

Dark Marik is less a split pesonality and more an entirely different being who takes over and ejects the real Marik

The real Marik still created him, though. He just took on a life of his own due to "the shadows" or whatever.

P Recisely. He took on a life of his own

Are we planning on doing rewrites on any of the Monster.Pokemon entries? The Darkrai and especially Grings entries are like 90% spoiler tagged, and J's is really short.

Also, the Darkrai entry isn't very good; it only gives one specific example of his misdeeds.

edited 18th Apr '13 7:25:12 PM by Camberf

Regarding the literature examples mentioned @11744

Berne from The Acts of Caine: Agree that it sounds like a keeper but needs to be expanded.

Captain Carol Mason from Agent Pendergast: Looking at the page for the book there is no doubt that she lacks moral agency apparently there is an Artifact of Doom that turns all who look at it into an Omnicidal Maniac. Cut

Howard De Vore from Chung Kuo: Sounds like a keeper. Unless there is a clear indication that he doesn't have a concept of morality (or has a sideways one) he should probably be kept.

edited 18th Apr '13 7:21:55 PM by SophiaLonesoul

I cut the duke of Zill from felix the cat.

By the way, i'm pretty sure we agreed to keep lady van tassel from Sleepy Hollow but what about Icabod's father? he did think his wife was a witch.

edited 18th Apr '13 7:41:33 PM by bobg

With Hunter J's entry, it should be rewritten to mention how she tortures and petrifies Pokemon before selling them to clients on the black market for cash, in addition for not caring about her own crew she's completely cold and heartless and cares nothing for life of any kind: her only goal in life is lining her own pockets, and how she did the work of bombing Lake Valor and capturing the Lake Pokemon for Team Galactic, who were planning to use said Pokemon's power to wipe out the whole world. And the point about her trying to kill Ash (in excited italics) shouldn't come first, since that's what many villains do. It should just be mentioned that she's one of the few villains to attempt murder of Ash and his friends on the show, which makes her stand out as heinous by the show's standards.

edited 18th Apr '13 7:53:07 PM by AnewMan

@Anew Man

lightysnake's done a good job of explaining why Dark Marik was kept, but I'll also add the following: unlike Whispered, Dark Marik wasn't deliberately created. He was born from Marik's pain, anger, etc, but that wasn't a concious choice on his part. Additionally, after getting his hands on the Millenium Rod and kicking normal!Marik out of his body, Dark Marik becomes a completely independent character, who is more then capable of making moral choices.

Generally speaking, he's an exception to our rule about cases of DID. Normally we cut, unless there are extenuating circumstances. Dark Marik is a case where there are extenuating circumstances (he becomes a separate physical being). Norman Osborn is another case (both personalities are straight up evil). For examples we've cut, see Tobias Hankel (as mentioned before), Mister Hyde, and Hallelujah Haptism.

EDIT: I thought I'd post a potential write-up for Suguo.

• Suguo Nobuyuki from Sword Art Online is the director of research and development at RECTO Progress Incorporated, and the one time fiance of female lead, Asuna Yuuki. He was also completely obsessed with research into the manipulation of human emotion. Following the clearing of Sword Art Online, Suguo obtained information on 300 of the surviving players, and trapped them in his own game, Alfheim Online so that he could run experiments on them. Kidnapping Asuna in the game, he keeps her trapped in a gilded cage at the top of Alfheim's World Tree, while plotting to wed the comatose girl in the real world. When protagonist Kirito reaches the top of the World Tree, Suguo uses his administrator abilities to paralyse him, tortures him, and then sexually assaults Asuna in front of him, gloating the entire time about how, once he's freed, he will rape her again in real life. When the plan fails, he attempts to kill Kirito in the real world, attacking him with a knife. Guilty of attempted murder, torture, trying to rape a teenage girl, and putting three hundred people who had just spent two years fighting for their lives through an additional two months of trauma, Suguo is as bad as SAO's villains get.

How does that look? Also, is anybody here familiar enough with the third arc in the manga to comment on Xa Xa and Johnny Black? From what little I know either/both of them might qualify (depending on if Xa Xa cares about his brother, and if Johnny is overshadowed by Xa Xa) but I don't want to judge based on the small amount of information I could glean from the wiki.

edited 20th Apr '13 6:39:03 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Man, not even gone 48 hours and I find I have to slog through 7 pages... Oh well. The things we do for love.

• Beyblade examples: Come on, Ambar, don't mock cheapo made in [insert random East/Southeast asian country]! It's Serious Business (for the toy company who made a mint off these back then)! But seriously, while I haven't watched the show in a long while either, they just don't strike me as quite bad enough even by Merchandise-Driven Shōnen Genre standards (The CMs from Bakugan, for example, are at least an order of magnitude worse IMO). Cut.

Battle Royale examples: Gonna say Cut to both. As repugnant as he is, Niida isn't the worst student, while as stated, manga/novel!Kiriyama is diqualified due to his brain damage-induced pseudopsychopathy removing his claims to any real moral agency. As for movie!Kiriyama, he always struck me more as a low-power Generic Doomsday Villain with one or two dashes of sadism in a movie that revels in it.

Shinigami King, Death Note ... *Headdesk* The shit we have to put up with... Cut, just... Cut.

Metal Gear Rising Revengeance: Cut the group, obviously. I'll vote Keep on Sundowner, though, given Iaculus' rundown. Dude clearly went Full Bastard.

The Creeper, Jeepers Creepers: One of those examples I'd have to see to make up my mind; since I don't think it's on canadian Netflix right now, it probably won't be anytime soon. Methinks it's pretty clear he's sapient, so moral agency is quite probable.

Norman Osborn, The Spectacular Spider-Man: Huh. Weird, last time I was involved in discussion about him we were leaning to Keep. Oh, and Anew: He wasn't considered a CM after he dropped Gwen Stacy in the comics. He got to that status after his comeback in the late 90's. It's on his character page.

Krug rewrite, The Last House On The Left: As I'm the guy who Grammar Nazi'd the final draft, I'll ask for it to replace the current group entry.

Ghetsis, Turbo, Syndrome: Everytime someone tries to bring back somebody from the "never again" list, God kills a kitten. Please think of the kittens.

The Grandmother, Criminal Minds: Agree with Cut. Agree with Hamburger and Ambar that it's mostly due to what show she's on, though.

Red Faction examples: Kobel and Capek are the only 2 serious candidates there IMO. Gunnarsen has too much Offscreen Villainy (the 300 deaths he supposedly caused, on which the entry says little detail was given) to count. Cut him and those who aren't Kobel or Capek.

Revenge examples: Not sure about Michelle Banks; Grandpa Grayson seems like a classical case of mistaking Moral Event Horizon for CM, so Cut unless he did more bad stuff of similar calibre; Mary's a pathetic wretch, but of the 3 has to me the most solid rap sheet for potential inclusion.

Good to hear from you, 32. Congrats on the baby, sympathies and solidarity for what you and all bostonites have to live through at the moment, and godspeed overall. Also, agree with the points you made @11674.

Gabriel Garcia Marquez example: No context. Cut.

Phalen rewrite, Battlestar Galactica Reimagined: If it's OK with everybody I'll do the modification randomtroper89 suggested and then post it and Cain to the locked pages edit request thread.

Lolita, Welcome To The Dollhouse: Cut. Seems that troper has lots of Standard Adolescence Issues to work out if he does this often.

Michael Myers, Halloween: Agree with the Depending on the Writer bit; the first 2 movies stand appart on their own, 4-5-6 are so different in tone and theme they may as well be a spinoff Alternate Continuity. Keep in any case.

Randall Flagg, various Stephen King works: I vote Keep. He's basically meant as the Kingverse's equivalent of Nyarlathotep, who as I recall was voted Keep even though it's an Eldritch Abomination. He's portrayed as being fully sapient, too. And his acts are plenty heinous enough. AND some demons can count, though admittedly it's mostly under unusual circumstances.

Sword Art Online examples: Cut Cradil/Kradil. Keep and rewrite Suguo. Though I have to know, does someone cave the creep's face in?

EDIT: Your writeup looks good, Ambar, but I'd dwell a bit more on the experiments/tortures he put his 300 guinea pigs through.

Felix The Cat example: Yes, bobg, Kill It with Fire post-haste.

Inu Yasha examples: Good points all. Cut all (maybe bat-gramps could be kept with a better writeup explaining more of his evil deeds, though)

Occasional's list @11744: Agree with most points, with the following caveat: Uber-espers' progenitor, Deathstalker: I think it's the progenitor's acts before she was sundered which should be added, not more info on the Uber-espers resulting from said sundering. If all we have is "She's so evil she split up into mini-Cthulhus", I say Cut. Also, here are those I most see potentially keeping: Berne (everywhere I've looked makes him sound utterly depraved), Howard DeVore (if we can get proof he's got sufficiently human-like moral capacity for it), Caleb Carson, Ka Anor (given new info from Ambar and Lighty),

Stephen King examples: Big surprise that it's a mess... Definitely needs better writeups, agreed.

Digimon examples @11751: Burninate everything there. Even the D-Reaper (as a massive fan of everything Cosmic Horror Story-related the 3rd season as a whole and the D-Reaper especially are my favorite parts of the franchise), whose moral agency is on the level of a Neon Genesis Evangelion Angel at best. Even if it gains the power and understanding of humans necessary to delete everything through the Mind Rape of the series's biggest Woobie-in fact, said Mind Rape was feeding a vicious circle (>1: Jerri feels misery >2: D-Reaper feeds on it >3: D-Reaper becomes more powerful and cruel >4: D-Reaper tortures Jerri to feed more >goto 1). As for Tactimon, Apollomon. Milleniummon, Gravimon and Neovamdemon I don't know them.

Ichabod's father, Sleepy Hollow: Gonna vote no since IIRC all we know about him except his strict puritanism is his murdering his wife. Again this looks like confusing Moral Event Horizon for Complete Monster.

edited 18th Apr '13 10:03:01 PM by Paireon

To answer your question, Kirito rips open Suguo's cheek, chops off his hand, cuts him in half, and then stabs him through the eye in game. Then beats the tar out of him in the real world and has him thrown in jail. And then his company collapses.

I also have no desire to cut Flagg. I just want a better write up for him, and can't provide it (I'm only familiar with his Eyes of the Dragon incarnation).

edited 18th Apr '13 9:59:58 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar