During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Professor Gigachad
Yeah, it does seem more discussion is needed, but like this is such an odd situation I don't think anyone has any idea what to think.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
I've also seen Bright myself and sadly, I have to agree with Lighty and vote to cut Leilah. I'm sure Tyk did their best explaining that scene of her in their EP and that scene with her sister was brief before she tries to kill her Tikki, but she does express sadness when trying to kill Tikki believing that Ward turned her against Leliah. It sucks because it was a brief moment and Leilah could count otherwise, but it is enough to show that Leliah does care about her sister in some degree that she shows sadness when she believes she must kill her.
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 26th 2022 at 5:58:05 AM
C Ms through bad writing can happen (Ahmanet, Unalaq, etc.) but if it ends on her seeing killing her sister as an unfortunate necessity then that's a case of Even Evil Has Loved Ones with crappy execution but it counts
Edited by Agentofchaos on Feb 26th 2022 at 5:47:30 AM
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Cut Leliah. I knew that scene was gonna cause problems down the line.
Captain Pinkie Pie! Nah, just Pinkie Pie.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
The Bright chick
Barb / Temporary Kylo
@Ordeux
What Rav said really. Its easy to just judge it like any other work, plenty of amazing shows can have things where a Redeeming Quality is vague or debatable and we can Discuss it, or Hell the One I brought up Varrick
For Leliah herself, She has already sent killers after her before that point, and if she cared about her she should still seem at least a little regretful or torn up over holding them hostage then trying to kill them, but she doesn't. If she tried to kill her specifically because of her 'corruption' and out of desperation or trying to save her I would agree but that doesn't happen. I don't personally see why being upset over there loved one being corrupted would make them stop caring about them, wouldn't caring about them be the reason they were mad?
With Trunchbull and Kevin the Redeeming quality is just really vague and isn't made super clear thanks to bad writing, in this case most things she does goes against it being redeeming, both before and after the single scene that could potentially be redeeming, I would say these same things even in a movie that was good beyond a Guilty pleasure flick.
I hope that makes sense and I do still respect the cut arguments.
The First man
The 'she sent killers after her' argument would work without the scene of her crying over Tikka at the end.
Yeah... it might be a mess but that's the nail in the coffin to me.
Professor Gigachad
I see that Kevin from Rocky Handsome is also getting brought up, I don't really know much about it so are we going to cut him or not?
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
RIP Toriyama
Honestly, hell, while we're on this topic, lemme go ahead and suggest a cut of my own, one of mine from
- checks calendar
Almost 5 years ago!
- Doubt: Hazama Rei is a petty psychopath who, upon having her talent for hypnosis slandered and her part on a magic TV show criticized, grew to despise all of humanity for "rejecting" her abilities. Thus, using the game "Rabbit Doubt" as a basis, Rei began hypnotizing people into slaughtering others, using her hypnotic abilities to convince her subjects that their own loved ones were coercing them into it. After getting well over a dozen innocents killed this way, Rei pulls the stunt once more, leading to the deaths of several teenagers in particularly gruesome ways, and, even when one survives, Rei uses the memory of her dead parents to trick the survivor into getting himself killed, promising him as he dies that she will continue her crusade against humanity for as long as she lives.
While the arguments I made for her back then were fine enough, I think this is another case where bad writing for redeeming features doesn't = lack of redeeming features. Rei's entire motive stems from society humiliating and mocking her and her parents until her parents killed themselves, and while she takes advantage of that fact to pull off The Bad Guy Wins at the end, nothing ever really invalidates the sheer look of horror and sadness on her face in the flashback when she finds her parents dead, and while her using a faulty Motive Rant to activate a hypnotic suggestion and kill the hero is a shitty way to treat her parents' memory, again, nothing in the text actually says she never cared, and assuming as much is leaning too far into Alternative Character Interpretation via Fridge Logic.
Crap writing, but it's not like say, Krake finding his mother's body, plainly saying "Mom?", then walking off and never again acknowledging her existence as an ambiguous redeeming feature. Even if the writing in the manga never really addresses it, Rei's motive is inherently tied to her parents' death, and she can be chop-chopped as far as I'm concerned.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Cut Rei, then.
Professor Gigachad
Rei seems like a more easy Cut.
CM Sandboxes, MB SandboxesWell then, bye bye Rei
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Cut Rei.
Can someone please list all the cuts we're making?
And what's the current count for the Law and Order trio? I'm officially a
Also, Dagra Dai.
Professor Gigachad
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Dagra
The current cuts are Lelliah, possibility Kevin and this new one.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Feb 26th 2022 at 3:18:23 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
RIP Toriyama
ACW, Dagra Dai seems like he counts, but was there any reason you didn't just give him a proper effortpost? Like, the reason the votes aren't coming in is because there is no indicators it's even an effortpost. No bold detailing who it is, what they do, what mitigating factors are there or not...just repost it, put a few more details down with the usual effortpost format, and I'm sure he'll get votes and be approved.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 26th 2022 at 3:18:51 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
ACW, I need to point out, that's not much a proposal. That's a lengthy quote. I know the guy keeps, but...stop trying to get people to upvote him if you're not gonna put in the effort of really proposing him. Like...if you wnt to propose someone, propose and write them up, I hold that standard for everyone on thread.
Anyways, cut Rei there, and I'll happily agree with 43 to cut Kevin and keep only Luke.
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 26th 2022 at 3:19:05 AM
Professor Gigachad
I mean the effort post is more of a guideline rather than a hard rule but you maybe should have made it more clear what it is.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
That's fair.
To be honest, there's not much to say. I'll clean it up tomorrow though.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I've long been a proponent that an EP is just a guideline, but "he's bad, here's a quote and a short descrip" is pushing it.
ACW, feel free to just C/P my Elizebet EP and make whatever chnges needed. I don't really mind, just give context for people to vote. youu've made EP's before. Let's just get him done and get the others written up soon
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 26th 2022 at 3:21:28 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yep, I'll do the revised EP tomorrow morning (along with the writeup), then writeup Rastor and Sphinx late morning/afternoon.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The exact EP format is a guideline. Writing out all the bases — redeeming qualities, heinousness, competition — is the minimum required.
Professor Gigachad
By the way, ACW the split Fan Works pages are ready to be locked on Tuesday.
I will also throw in a cut for Kevin while I am at it.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Feb 26th 2022 at 3:54:53 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Cut Rei and Kevin.
Edited by CaptainPinkiePie on Feb 26th 2022 at 7:56:00 AM
Captain Pinkie Pie! Nah, just Pinkie Pie.
So it became sapient after that happened?
Tbh has anyone else read this
More discussion might be needed here.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."