Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Oh, in that case, only Leon from season 1. Although, as you beautifully said, Hank’s care for his daughter is quite perverted and more like caring for his own property. Most likely, he will become the CM in the future.
Yeah, the EPs won't be done for two years at the earliest, maybe one but now seasons all take two years to produce. While I thought we could have EP Hank and Bud right away because I felt Hank totally subverted all of his qualities and Bud only views the Vault-Tec employees as extensions of himself; Barb was really the only one I did feel we should wait and see on since its' not entirely clear if she shed any and all affections for her daughter despite being the chief instigator of the nuclear war, I could see why there is a bit of hesitation here(and I will take the argument that Bud's role in planning the nuclear war isn't as pronounced in the narrative...yet).
There are a few Fallout EPs coming, but they are tied to the mainline games.
Edited by xie323 on Apr 26th 2024 at 6:03:19 AM
Jogo
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Otto and Leon
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So I'll do:
- TV series: Leon von Felden
above the folders.
And Whately's going at the end of the Fallout 4 folder.
Any other candidates? And I remember there were some potential cuts.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yes to Otto and Leon von Felden
Would Leon Von Felden actually go on Fallout 1 folder instead at the very top?
This is because he was a presence in the lore since that game, but we can mention that it was revealed in the Fallout tv series how he behaved with a passage like "Revealed in the pre-war period to have gleefully planned the experimentation of illegal immigrants for a supersoldier program...." for his entry
It does seem to be a situation with FFVII Remake trilogy where Hojo established his CM credentials by part 2, but he was already present in part 1 and thus his entry went on that YMMV page.
Edited by xie323 on Apr 26th 2024 at 6:18:46 AM
Goku Black
Uh Like Stanislaus I'd rather put just put him in the work he actually appears in. With a note of his effects in other stuff.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Leon.
Would this Inspector Campbell monologue from Peaky Blinders, awesomely delivered by Sam Neill, work out as a quote?
"Then I'm in your hands. Completely. You hold all the cards. But I hope to God that my dismissal doesn’t come before your decision to hand back those guns. And I say this for your sake, because if I were to be fired and it were your fault, I would do things that would shame the Devil. My fury is a thing to behold. On my last day in power, for example, I would see to it that you and your scum brothers have your heads stoved in with mallets and spades. And your sister too. That baby inside her would be of no consequence to me. The only one to be spared would be your little brother Finn. He would however be lifted as a juvenile and dumped into that part of the adult prison where men have the most appetite for boys like him. Oh, that would be a dark day indeed, Mr. Shelby, if my dismissal becomes before your decision.”
- Inspector Chester Campbell to Tommy Shelby, Peaky Blinders
I think that quote works
Edited by xie323 on Apr 26th 2024 at 6:29:47 AM
Yes to Otto
Also for where the show will go on the Fallout page, the show does take place in the southwest, the meeting we see Leon in was in LA
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
pronounced 'Scraggle'
Yeah, put Leon in the Southwest folder at the top. Both Fallout 1 and the show are set there and those are the properties that actually reference/feature him directly.
Watch for the sign of the Saint — he will be back!
Otto, Leon
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I shall do that.
Otto and Leon
Azulin still loved his mother and expressed genuine sadness over the priests death, alongside expressing some regret over his actions even if it didn’t last
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
for Colonel Otto and Leon Von Felden.
Gentle Laborer
Happy to Leon
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Otto and especially Leon, great work there Agent!
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Happy to Leon.
Agreed with Scrags' points on Hank, Barbara and Bud.
The First man
RIP Toriyama
Yes to Otto and Leon, great work by all!
This is a longer one but he's a big character who needs the patterns of self-interest and narcissism spelled out, IMO.
- Odin, the self-proclaimed All-Father of the Nine Realms, wears the mask of a wise, friendly sage, but is actually a controlling narcissist who seeks ultimate knowledge and power, and only values those who further this cause. Lord of the Aesir who turned his people against their creator Ymir, Odin drowned the Jötnar race in Ymir's blood in a bigoted attempt to "cleanse" the Realms of Giants. Crafting Midgard and beginning a campaign of brutal conquest, Odin forced Svartalfheim to craft war machines by enslaving the dwarves; threw Helheim out of balance and caused the Desolation by corrupting the Valkyries into insanity; and lead repeated genocide attempts against both the realm of Vanaheim and the repopulated Jötnar. Odin created his "eyes" by having mortal followers sacrifice their children so that their souls would be trapped as Odin's "spies" forever. Odin has a knack for abusing and ruining those he "loves", from tricking the huntress Skaði into murdering her own father; to torturing Mimir daily for over a century; to damning his wife Freya to be trapped, defenseless, on Midgard while her people believe she abandoned them. Odin's immediate family fare no better, as he "thrashed" his son Thor to raise him into an alcoholic killing machine, and regularly throws his other children or grandchildren into danger while deriding them as "useless" if they die. In his quest to avert his prophesied doom from Ragnarök, Odin turns Atreus against his father; uses hundreds of Midgardians as human shields; stabs the beloved Brok to death, and even murders Thor when he refuses Odin's order to "not think; just kill who I tell you to kill!" A petty tyrant who mistreats everyone and everything in service of himself, Odin is described as never having loved anyone, and even when redemption is offered, he promises to never stop his mad quest for omnipotence.
Good writeup Ravok
pronounced 'Scraggle'
And okay, my next Fallout is a relitigation for a New Vegas character, from the DLC Honest Hearts...
What has Salt-Upon-Wounds done?
- Salt-Upon-Wounds is the leader of the White Legs, a particularly apeshit tribe of Raiders who descended from the survivors of Salt Lake City. Primitive even by Raider standards, the White Legs have no culture aside from Rape, Pillage, and Burn. Salt-Upon-Wounds is said to have exterminated countless tribes and personally killed hundreds of people with his power fist, but it wasn't until he was approached by Ulysses who offered him the chance to join Caesar's Legion that Salt-Upon-Wounds truly shows what he's made of.
- In exchange for arms and (he's told) a place in the Legion, all Salt-Upon-Wounds had to do was destroy the Mormon town of New Canaan and all within—something alt-Upon-Wounds was eager to do. In the dead of night, the White Legs attacked and massacred everyone in sight. The elderly, the children, the infirm, those who fought and those who ran and those who tried to help the wounded, all of them. Children were beaten to death in their beds. The town's elderly bishop was burned alive and screaming in his own house. Then Salt-Upon-Wounds nailed the victims of New Canaan to a cliff face, then salted the earth so nothing would ever grow in New Canaan again.
- Only thirty New Canaanites escape the mass slaughter—including the Legion's real target, Joshua Graham—and they relocate to the land of Zion, where Joshua and fellow survivor Daniel appeal for the help of two other tribes, the Sorrows and the Dead Horses. Salty prepares to mount a second attack and do to Zion what he did to New Canaan; exterminate not just the survivors of New Canaan, but the Dead Horses and the Sorrows as well, down to the kids.
- In-between, Salty also has the White Legs indiscriminately murder and scalp travellers and caravans on the roads, leading to a friendly caravan the player is travelling with being slaughtered.
- What happens to Salty depends on player choice. Either he's successful in eradicating Zion and then killed by Caesar for fulfilling his purpose; killed by either Graham or the player; or demoralised and then driven off, at which point he's killed by a rival tribe. Either way, he's fucked.
Any mitigating factors?
- Salt-Upon-Wounds was cut years ago for Offstage Villainy. The arguments as to why are why I'm glad we got rid of the overly technical stipulations of how that affects a potential's chances (basically "we don't see any scars, so it doesn't count!")
- Offhandedly mentioning "oh, he's wiped out countless tribes!" of course, isn't going to meaningfully qualify toward his rapsheet. But the massacre of New Canaan and the general pattern of Rape, Pillage, and Burn of the White Legs has plenty of onscreen correlation. We hear elaborate testimonies from two emotionally traumatized survivors, Graham and Daniel (whose differing ideals as to how to retaliate frame the main moral conflict of the DLC); we meet a woman who was widowed in a previous White Leg attack; we personally experience a White Leg attack when the caravan is massacred; his entire scheme is built upon doing to Zion what he did to New Canaan…
- The short of it, the slaughter of New Canaan easily passes our current standards. And Salty has nothing else to discuss. The White Legs as a whole are so stupidly, singlemindedly evil they neglect learning basic agriculture and education in favor of their "kill everything that moves" strategy, but Salt-Upon-Wounds is their leader and bar none their worst member.
- Okay, wiping out cities (or trying to) isn't exactly uncommon in Fallout, even among similarly disorganised Raider groups—the Gunners from 4 wiped out the city of Quincy, and David Thorpe from 76 flooded the city of Charleston—and of course, we also have to measure Raiders who engage in atrocities like cannibalism, slavery, rape…gangs like the Fiends, the Slavers, the Forged.
- What sells Salty for me is that he applies the usual cruelty of the Raiders on scales unmatched by any of them, including the aforementioned David Thorpe and the Gunners. That's impressive for a Stupid Evil raider who only accomplished anything meaningful thanks for the resources provided by the Legion; with that, Salt-Upon-Wounds massacres a hugely-populated city, torturing many of its residents down to the children and the elderly; tries to do the same to Zion; and has a general pattern of ordering the White Legs to savagely kill everything in sight.
Edited by Starkrafty on Apr 26th 2024 at 12:30:52 PM
Watch for the sign of the Saint — he will be back!And a to Salty
Not the Eye
Enthusiastic yes to Leon.
Okay, just to break it down: I have a firm eye on Hank McLean (who nuked Shady Sands and turned his own wife into a rotting, decrepit ghoul); Barbara Howard (who is the closest thing we've seen to a central head of Vault-Tec); and Bud Askins (who set up the horror show of Vaults 31—33 as part of his plan to replace humanity with his own corporate-conditioned "Buds").
All of them, though, are in the middle of their arcs, and all of them potentially have redeeming qualities. Hank definitely didn't care about his wife but he does seem (in a very twisted and possessive way, mind) to care about Lucy. Barb gaslit her husband but may care about their daughter. Bud Askins is probably the most promising so far, but even he has a weird case of My Beloved Minions as concerns his "Buds" (although that may well just be because he's effectively brainwashed them to embody all of Vault-Tec's corrupt values, to a fault).
In short, we'll wait and see for season 2.
Watch for the sign of the Saint — he will be back!