To-do list:
- Move examples of attractive guys/cute girls with a debilitating sicknesses from Ill Girl, Ill Boy, Ill Child, and Ill Man to Delicate and Sickly and remove ones that don't (such as examples that are simply about a character with an illness with none of the trope's connotations).
A Wick Check determined that the trope suffered misuse under a variety of categories, including simply "an ill character”, with only eight checked examples determined as correct usage (9.5%). Both Related.IllGirl and Related.IllBoy were checked due to their large number of wicks, though there are also redirects for Ill Child (31) and Ill Man (16). To summarize the findings found here:
- 8/84 Correct Usage or 9.5%
- 6/84 Only Debilitatingly Ill or 7%
- 17/84 Just sick/weak or 20%
- 5/84 Character is Mentally Ill or 6%
- 12/84 Has a disability or 14%
- 15/84 Other Misuse or 18%
- 4/84 Unclear or 4.75%
- 17/84 ZCE or 20%
Combining the various misuse categories, this trope has a 90% misuse rate. The laconic isn’t the worst description in the world, summarized as "Someone, usually female, who’s debilitatingly sick." but I think it is probably one of the reasons for some misuse. A common theme in misuse is describing a character who was sick in the past or before the work takes place, often as a freebie in addition to Sickly Child Grew Up Strong. Tightening the restrictions and/or making them clearer may help alleviate future misuse.
I know renaming is usually a last resort, but I also believe the trope name itself is a source of misuse. It is a cutesy, close rhyme title, but it may be too broad, especially with the trend of swapping out "girl" for the appropriate descriptor (i.e. "boy", "man", "woman"), which doesn't necessarily violate the How to Write an Example rule on not altering trope titles in example lists (gender is an exception) but still not great because of the short trope title, so it'll still affect alphabetization.
Edited by Berrenta on Aug 24th 2022 at 12:32:51 PM
What if it was renamed to Motivational Sick Child?
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupYeah, it sounds like the issue is that the name implies it's a much broader trope than it actually is. Rename it to something like Ill Ingenue? Innocent Ill Child?
I like Innocent Ill Child.
Trust no one.Too much overlap with Healthcare Motivation
I agree the focus on this trope should be the fragility/delicateness of the sick character.
I'm in favor of renaming, since the name is bad for the same reason Bad Dreams (the old name for Past Experience Nightmare) was a bad name (i.e., the fact that it makes the trope sound broader than it actually is), but I haven't decided on a name yet.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.I like Innocent Ill Child and bonus points for it being a gender-neutral title.
ETA: 'd
Edited by Hello83433 on Feb 13th 2022 at 3:16:27 PM
CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floorsSince there's a better trope for motivation, I'm okay with Innocent Ill Child or Innocent Sick Child / Innocent Debilitated Child so the "III" wouldn't look hard for the eyes.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupThat's true as well.
I didn't even know Healthcare Motivation existed. That's good for some of the misused examples.
Victorian Novel Disease appears to be the adult equivalent to what Ill Girl is supposed to be, although it is also an Always Female trope (or at least written like one).
CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floorsDon't forget Convenient Terminal Illness and Soap Opera Disease if applicable in misuse cases.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupIt's actually wicked in the first paragraph, in the sentence you cited Further proof for my anti-pothole agenda!
That's not really damning because of how pervasive Men Are Tough and Women Are Delicate are. A manly hunter guy isn't going to be caught withering away on a fainting couch but a dainty male poet might. It could maybe be rewritten to be more gender-neutral, but I don't think it's automatically a huge problem.
lol, my dumb brain
Also true, although I'm not sure now what my original point was bringing that up.
CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floorsInnocent Ill Child / Innocent Sickly Child would be good.
Maybe Sickly Innocent Child as it tracks with Sickly Neurotic Geek, which feels like a sister trope. I wonder if a supertrope for characters defined by chronic poor health is necessary?
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.I've also seen Ill Girl used for chronically ill female characters who are defined by their illness-induced frailty (the most recent example I remember seeing is Nightingale from Arknights). Would that be worth splitting off into a trope
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?Since Healthcare Motivation exists, I feel the "another character goes on a quest to cure her" part can be dropped, and we define this as a character vignette: an innocent, never-that-strong person who has a debilitating disease for a large part of the story, and looks both cute and pitiable with it. They attract the sympathy of those around, and the intention is that the audience will too. They are most often a girl, but can also be elderly, in which case a key part is that they cared for those around them when younger. They are not defiant about their illness, and if they try to hide it, they fail.
With a definition like this (and a rename) it wouldn't matter what role they play in the plot or how they motivate others; just the fact that they are framed in this way and given some focus would qualify for this trope.
Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.There's also Littlest Cancer Patient.
For every low there is a high.Healthcare Motivation is specifically for morally questionable deeds in pursuit of saving a sick loved one's life. That is beyond just motivating someone to go on a quest to accomplish the same result.
I'm inclined to run a check on that one now because it seems way too narrow for the title, and it'd be easy to just broaden it during a merge.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure PurenessIf neither Ill Girl or Healthcare Motivation can be used as Not-Yet-Lost Lenore, then it's going to cause problems with the examples.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupPerhaps by the description, but the page is already softsplit into criminal and non criminal acts, with the latter category including (just from a skim of the first folder) “becoming a pro athlete abroad”, “become a scientist”, and “overworking”.
Edited by Synchronicity on Feb 15th 2022 at 9:56:19 AM
Hooked a crowner for whether to rename this since there's already been some support in favor of it.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 16th 2022 at 4:51:29 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.I agree that this trope should be renamed. However, I feel most of the suggested examples would likely still cause misuse; this trope doesn't just apply to children. Therefore, I think it should be renamed to "Ill Ingenue".
Ill Girl is for children though. That's one of the main parts of the trope.
The adult equivalent is Victorian Novel Disease.
CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floorsYou might be thinking of Littlest Cancer Patient, because nothing implies that this trope is child-specific.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Crown Description:
Consensus was to rename Ill Girl. What should its new name be?
To-do list:
A Wick Check determined that the trope suffered misuse under a variety of categories, including simply "an ill character”, with only eight checked examples determined as correct usage (9.5%). Both Related.IllGirl and Related.IllBoy were checked due to their large number of wicks, though there are also redirects for Ill Child (31) and Ill Man (16). To summarize the findings found here:
Combining the various misuse categories, this trope has a 90% misuse rate. The laconic isn’t the worst description in the world, summarized as "Someone, usually female, who’s debilitatingly sick." but I think it is probably one of the reasons for some misuse. A common theme in misuse is describing a character who was sick in the past or before the work takes place, often as a freebie in addition to Sickly Child Grew Up Strong. Tightening the restrictions and/or making them clearer may help alleviate future misuse.
I know renaming is usually a last resort, but I also believe the trope name itself is a source of misuse. It is a cutesy, close rhyme title, but it may be too broad, especially with the trend of swapping out "girl" for the appropriate descriptor (i.e. "boy", "man", "woman"), which doesn't necessarily violate the How to Write an Example rule on not altering trope titles in example lists (gender is an exception) but still not great because of the short trope title, so it'll still affect alphabetization.
Edited by Berrenta on Aug 24th 2022 at 12:32:51 PM
CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors