For the first one: No, probably not.
For the second one: I'd say no to objects, but I'm divided on locations. Using Magic: the Gathering's Planes as an example; on the one hand, the setting is the location where the work takes place, and thus should probably be kept within the work's main page. But on the other hand, Magic has a spawling lore, with multiple Planes having their own self-contained stories, that it may be for the best that it's kept apart from the main page.
As of now, the Planes subpage is listed under Magic's characters subpage. I really don't think that it should; if the Locations idea has enough drive, then sure, it can go there. But there don't seem to be that many Setting as a Character examples within Magic's lore. With nowhere else to go, maybe the tropes should be redistributed among the various work pages.
Edited by GoldenCityBird on Aug 16th 2021 at 8:07:36 PM
TRS Wick Cleaning
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
- Should we be treating inanimate objects as characters?
- Could Locations/ and Objects/ work as sister namespaces to Characters/?
The only time locations should be treated as characters is when they're Genius Loci, like "The Island" from Lost or the town of Silent Hill.
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
Yeah, I vote "no" on making Location/ and Object/ pages. Not only is it an unnecessary split in 90% of cases, but it also would just make a bigger mess. Character/ pages are in bad shape as-is, and those have reason to exist as a split of the main work page. Suggestion Location/ and Objects/ sort of misses the point of why it exists though: to de-clutter things and make organization easier. People often forget about that part and jump into Character/ pages even before a split becomes necessary. Plus, they're notorious for formatting and context issues, length issues, spoiler issues, etc, and they can make crosswicking a nightmare.
I don't want another set of problem pages that exist not out necessity, but just because people want to divide everything unnecessarily.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
I can maybe see something where the location/object is something really significant to the work, like the Enterprise from Star Trek is almost its own character, but that is a Pandora's box to open.
Do you not know that in the service one must always choose the lesser of two weevils!
Lost in Space
Folks, the main work article is for all of these trope examples. Characters subpages are a convenience; they should not be taken as a precedent for splitting out every single category of example.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
What to do with stuff like Infinity Stones in the MCU? We can't put them on the Franchise page because it is too long already. And they have more tropes associated with them than some characters (they quailify for a separate page with the new 40k symbols rule).
What is the correct place to put them then if both the main page and the "Characters" namespace is unavailable? Do we start deleting content just because there is no "Objects" namespace?
Edited by Asherinka on Aug 17th 2021 at 12:18:30 PM
Godzilla
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
If we can’t think of anything else, then MCU: Thanos may work.
No it may not, unfortunately. It is near the threshold where that page will have to be split itself, once you add the Infinity Stones to it, you'll get the "too long" warning 
Edited by Asherinka on Aug 17th 2021 at 12:20:25 PM
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
Clean the pages first. If they're still too long, try splitting alphabetically or something.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Thanos's page is fine, and does not need to be split yet. But we can't add something like the extra Infinity Stones section to it because it is long itself, see here MCU: Others.
Also, not everything related to these objects is associated with Thanos, they are franchise-wide artifacts.
My point is, we need to place tropes associated with items somewhere. If we can't put them on the franchise page, what is left? I undestand that with single works like a film or a game there is no such issue because the main page is always available. But what about large franchises?
Same with weapons. Lets take a character who always wields a weapon that has tropes associated with it (Thor's hammer etc). Since these tropes exist, we put the examples somewhere. Where do we put them if they are not tied to a single movie and are shared across, say 5, of them? Do we copy paste them to each works page, or do we put on them on the Character Sheet that all of those 5 movies have links to, because for MCU character sheets are not subpages of works pages but are rather subpages of a single franchise page?
Edited by Asherinka on Aug 17th 2021 at 12:41:58 PM
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
This is general advice I give to any long-page issue. If it can't fit into Thanos, I'm sure it can go somewhere else.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
As I understand it, the OP proposes to just delete those examples. I disagree with that. What is the point of having tropes for items in the first place if we can't put them anywhere?
Edited by Asherinka on Aug 17th 2021 at 12:43:53 PM
Godzilla
It didn’t, I think they should be kept.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
They are already, like this:
- MarvelCinematicUniverse/TropesA (Tropes A)
- MarvelCinematicUniverse/TropesBtoF (Tropes Bto F)
- etc
Or like this:
- AdaptationalBadass/MarvelCinematicUniverse (Marvel Cinematic Universe)
- AdaptationalHeroism/MarvelCinematicUniverse (Marvel Cinematic Universe)
- etc
But if we want to group tropes related to this particular MacGuffin because there are far too many of those and it is easier to find them when they are together, do we create something like MarvelCinematicUniverse/InfinityStones (or, say, MarvelCinematicUniverse/RecurringItems) and move them there instead of the characters namespace? Is this what should be done?
PS I asked for input from Cleanup Thread: Character Specific Pages
because the question of items on character pages was already discussed in it previously.
Edited by Asherinka on Aug 18th 2021 at 10:40:35 PM
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
. This wiki is for the tropes used within works, not any random details about movies (that's something for Fandom and other sites). We sort things based on tropes, not costumes/colours or objects/opinions. Characterization tropes is a valid way of sorting and has caused a number of problems on its own; a method of sorting unrelated to trope categorization is not going to get approved.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
I see your point but I respectfully disagree with it.
Regardless of my opinion, this is a huge issue that warrants a wider discussion. I read and edit franchise pages a lot and many of those have stuff grouped under " items / MacGuffins", "settings" etc subheaders currently, mostly using the Characters namespace for the lack of a better option. So if it is decided that such grouping is inappropriate, a clean-up is required, that can probably be done as a part of the Character Specific Pages Cleanup, with clear rules of where to move the orphan examples.
If it is an item directly related to a character (their signature weapon or costume, like Thor's hammer or Spider-Man's suit) and associated tropes are listed on the Character Sheet in a separate subfolder, do we just disband the subfolder and list all tropes from it on the Character Sheet alphabetically?
If it is a settings-wide item (like Infinity Stones), a location, or other piece of lore, do we disband the subfolder and move the tropes to the work or franchise page, where they should be listed alphabetically?
A non-MCU example - Dragon Age, "The Dragon Age Tropes" folder has this:
Sub-pages
- Character Sheets (Characters/DragonAge)
- Organization Tropes (DragonAge/DragonAgeOrganizations)<—franchise namespace
- Race Tropes (DragonAge/DragonAgeRaces)<—franchise namespace
- Deities And Lore Tropes (DragonAge/DragonAgeDeitiesAndLore)<—franchise namespace, including "other lore"
Other tropes common to the series:
- An alphabetical list
Edited by Asherinka on Aug 18th 2021 at 4:07:50 PM
Well, I do unconditionally agree with crazysamaritan that we don't want these splits on non-trope lines.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lies and Violence!
What about objects that are ambiguously sentient? Continuing with the topic of the Infinity Stones, didn't they send Red Skull to Vormir because he was too evil or something?
Not too invested in either side of the argument, just putting in my two cents. If you do get rid of all objects/locations:
- You're probably going to need a clean-up on the Star Wars pages, as a lot of them have folders describing the various planets.
- The Darkforce on MCU: Dark Dimension is noted to be sentient, so please don't delete that.
Lost in Space
A sentient object is still not a character unless it acts as a character by displaying characterization tropes. This means it should directly communicate and/or have a comprehensible personality.
Edited by Fighteer on Aug 18th 2021 at 9:17:19 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Would a robot like Redwing (who is a remote-controlled drone and not sentient, but is treated in the work variably like a Team Pet or Sidekick Creature Nuisance) count as a character?
Lost in Space
They could be on a character subpage if they are a possession or sidekick of a specific character, but otherwise no, unless the story "characterizes" them by playing it up as if they have personality traits even though they don't. This is easier in animated works, but it is possible to anthropomorphize something into seeming like a character.
You still have to identify those tropes, though. Does the pattern of beeping lights somehow indicate that it's a Deadpan Snarker? Is it beaten up so much that it becomes a Chew Toy or destroyed Once an Episode (i.e. They Killed Kenny)?
Edited by Fighteer on Aug 18th 2021 at 3:39:09 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
Like the difference between R2-D2 and any random battle droid.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
A few months ago, Warcraft The Artifact Weapons was deleted “Because non-sentient weapons usually lack motivations, emotions, and reactions, they cannot have characterization tropes applied to them. Non-characterization tropes can be applied, but they shouldn't be included on the character subpages any more than setting or plot tropes should have their own folders.”, which raises a few questions about the nature of the Characters/ namespace…
Edited by GeneralGigan on Aug 16th 2021 at 2:58:49 PM
SKREEEEEEEONK!