Well. Towerator has a summary that I like:
Sequelitis, in constrast, describes a lowering in quality in a series of subsequent works to the first opus. Both are possible at the same time: let's take Spiderman as an example. Things may go bad within a single story, such as the clone saga, or in subsequent stories.
Both are part of a supertrope tentatively called "Installment quality drop" somewhere in the thread.
Dork Age isn't a judgement over quality, but rather over popularity, describing a period where the work was less popular.
Is that enough of a distinction?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm confused by distinguishing between judgements about quality and popularity. We don't make objective claims about quality, just note perceptions of it. So, for us, a shift in quality and a shift in popularity are the same thing.
We do distinguish between them, or else we wouldn't have pages such as Acclaimed Flop. Critical/audience scores and awards shows are the usual indicators for quality, box office/streaming data/DVD sales etc. are indicators for popularity.
Edited by Synchronicity on Oct 13th 2021 at 2:17:55 PM
Acclaimed Flop is critics opinion vs. sales. It does not require us to take the position that the work is good. We don't and shouldn't make quality judgements like that. Audience score is a measure of popularity and perceived quality, which are basically the same thing. If Dork Age is about just sales not perceived quality, could I say "not many people read this run, but those who did love it, so it's a Dork Age"?
Edited by TheMountainKing on Oct 13th 2021 at 3:22:18 PM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Well, and likewise, those would talk about the audience perception that the works became bad. That's still not us making the quality judgement, that's us stating the popular opinion of the audience.
Dork Age meanwhile would be more objective, saying "this was the least popular point of the work sales and ratings wise". So for your hypothetical, yes, it'd count as Dork Age if it was the least popular run even if the actual readers enjoyed it. At the same time, a work could qualify for Sequelitis if it was the most-watched movie, but everyone absolutely hated it.
Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 13th 2021 at 3:44:48 PM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
If Dork Age isn't about quality, just popularity is purely numbers terms, then it's description needs a serious rewrite, because it and most pf the examples focus on perceived quality, not a drop in sales.
Edited by TheMountainKing on Oct 13th 2021 at 10:43:44 AM
I'm just going to offer my opinion that Dork Age shouldn't be a reflection of sales numbers, but instead, a measure of audience reception, due to the fact that sales numbers in some cases aren't the best metric for audience response.
Edited by Tormenator1 on Oct 14th 2021 at 2:10:41 PM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
If it's about response, it becomes completely redundant with the other two tropes, though. Since we already have tropes for response, it makes sense to have at least one that's more about ratings and money.
Then Dork Age is redundant in it's current form. The laconic even says the downturn can be "commercial and/or critical" and the page itself mostly talks about the work becoming lower quality, not purely less successful.
Edited by TheMountainKing on Oct 14th 2021 at 3:28:52 PM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Well, sure, but it's not like we'll be leaving it like that. If we all agree on the popularity-based definition, we'll overhaul all of that.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
The Unknown
I feel like we're overcomplicating this.
The way I see it, Seasonal Rot should be about a single, continuous (probably serialized?) work that is perceived to have degraded in quality as it continues to soldier on. Think of how people view the modern Simpsons. Typically it does not recover (hence the "rot"), or maybe we should specify that it never does recover.
Dork Age is about either an era of a single work or a group of works in a franchise that are seen are low quality compared to the eras it's sandwiched between. (Related to, but distinct from, Sophomore Slump due to the specifics and that Sophomore Slump does not automatically mean bad.) It's only an "age" so it eventually does recover.
The current names seem pretty indicative to me. Maybe make them mutually exclusive or something?
Edited by Karxrida on Oct 15th 2021 at 9:41:39 AM
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
That's all I think for the solution, and with your definition for Dork Age too. Add the consensus that Seasonal Rot = serialized, Sequelitis = installment-based (or serialized works that are follow-ups, like the Anime, Comics and Live Action TV folders), and we just need to check for what is in two or three pages so we can move\erase the redundant entries down to a single one (already gave the examples of the Film and Comics folders, and just saw the Anime and Manga Dork Age page has many cases that could simply be Seasonal Rot).
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Okay. To move this thread forward, how about a crowner?
- Turn Dork Age into a trope about popularity, rather than quality
- Turn Seasonal Rot into a quality dip in a single installment or similar
- Create an Installment Quality Drop supertrope for Seasonal Rot and Sequelitis
I didn't add the Sequelitis idea since I'm fairly certain that's just the current definition. I also may have missed some options.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
I think that covers the gist of what was proposed.
Ok, but if Dork Age is to be about popularity (which I think is fine btw), it needs a better name (which I think might be the subject of the next crowner)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Hi
Crowner. ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Edited by Willbyr on Oct 26th 2021 at 11:14:39 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I advertised the crowner on ATT.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Officially intimidated
Posting this comment to make public that I voted in favor of "Turn Seasonal Rot into a quality dip in a single installment or similar" as well as "Turn Dork Age into a trope about lower popularity rather than lower quality"
I didn't downvote the remaining option.
Edited by MyFinalEdits on Oct 26th 2021 at 11:40:25 AM
135 - 169 - 273 - 191 - 188 - 230 - 300
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
It's been about six days since the crowner was hooked. Is it ready to call?
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
looks like it is
Edited by namra on Oct 31st 2021 at 7:58:50 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I think I previously hollered (though I could be thinking of a different thread), but it looks like it was missed. I hollered just now since the mods didn't call it yet.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 1st 2021 at 5:03:00 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
How sweet it is
We're doing all three options. Calling.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
I found the following written on the entry for Cartoon Network under the main "Dork Age" page:
- Many believe that Cartoon Network is currently on the verge of a third Dork Age. Tom Ascheim, who became president of the network following Miller's departure, has done little to save Cartoon Network in the eyes of fans. His tenure saw the cancellation of the much-beloved Infinity Train cutting short what its creators intended to be an 8-season series, all because the network believed that it didn't have a "child entry point". Shortly afterward, Comic Book Resources published a damning article
stating that Cartoon Network no longer wants mature themes in their shows, and from now on is only focused on airing juvenile, episodic comedies with protagonists under 18, in order to reinforce the idea that cartoons are for kids and kids alone, thus going out of their way to ward off any Periphery Demographic from the network. Then, things went out of the frying pan and into the fire with the launch of Cartoonito, a new preschool block which includes the controversial reboot of Thomas & Friends, as well as reruns of the much-reviled Caillou. The block ended up taking up more than half of Cartoon Network proper's former airtime, and as a result the latter now has the least amount of room on the network's schedule with only six hours of programming on weekdays. Furthermore, Cartoon Network announced that live-action programming would be returning to the network for the first time since Stuart Snyder's tenure, supposedly to draw more girls to the network, even though there are plenty of girls who still enjoy cartoons. However, some believe that things aren't all bad for the network, as in 2021 Cartoon Network unveiled a number of promising new shows, including My Adventures With Superman, Batman: Caped Crusader, and Genndy Tartakovsky's Unicorn: Warriors Eternal. In addition, the new Sunday night ACME Night block is to house more mature programming, which while mostly just movies and reruns right now, is said to eventually house some of CN's more mature fare that is upcoming.
- Many believe that Cartoon Network is currently on the verge of a third Dork Age. Tom Ascheim, who became president of the network following Miller's departure, has done little to save Cartoon Network in the eyes of fans. His tenure saw the cancellation of the much-beloved Infinity Train cutting short what its creators intended to be an 8-season series, all because the network believed that it didn't have a "child entry point". Shortly afterward, Comic Book Resources published a damning article
By the standards of a TV network, one year is hardly long enough to declare that a "dork age" is happening, and even if it was, the fact that the poster goes out of their way to mention that this possibly isn't all bad speaks pretty heavily against that possibility.
This entry— which I have since deleted— is referring to something that happened less than a year ago. This is far too little time to say that the network is in another "dork age" as it was between 2007 and 2010, or between 2015 and 2020.
Edited by ElSquibbonator on Nov 4th 2021 at 3:28:46 PM
Crown Description:
Consensus was to rename Dork Age. What should its new name be?
bumping again. are we deadlocked?