Bonus Boss nuances

The thing is, Bonus Boss as it's described currently is "a very difficult optional boss fight that becomes available near the end of the game and is intended as a challenge for veterans of the game", and a lot of the wicks I checked for the Bonus Boss Wick Check line up with that usage. There is some misuse, but I'm not sure if it's enough to get a TRS thread opened, and "this name isn't the clearest name we could have, but the name isn't causing problems" is definitely not enough to get a thread opened.

In any case, I think the idea was that we would rename Bonus Boss to Superboss, launch three new tropes called Secret Boss, Optional Boss, and Route Boss, and make Bonus Boss a redirect to Optional Boss, the supertrope that would have links to all of the subtropes. But again, that would need TRS, and TRS needs evidence of a problem, and I don't know if we have enough evidence.

Edited by Serac on Dec 20th 2020 at 2:47:47 PM

Okay, that makes sense to me. (Although I would make "Bonus Boss" a redirect to "Secret Boss", myself.)

Hum. So we wouldn't be allowed to change things as described there?

We could at the least put the new tropes—Secret Boss, Route Boss, and Optional Boss—on the Trope Launch Pad, surely? If we did, would it be against the rules of the place to simply define Optional Boss as the supertrope and to edit Bonus Boss only so far as to define it as a sub-trope?

We wouldn't get the re-name then, but we'd at least get the majority of the stuff listed there done.

[edit] I missed that Optional Boss actually exists already, and would seem to require some reworking to define as a super-trope, so that might be out if the Repair Shop is required, but likely to disallow. Similarly Secret Boss already being a redirect to Bonus Boss. Bah.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Dec 20th 2020 at 12:03:39 PM

Optional Boss is a disambiguation currently; I'm not sure we would need TRS to promote it to being an actual trope. I was more talking about needing TRS to rename Bonus Boss.

In that case, I think it's safe to say there are no problems with Bonus Boss, and we just need to keep an eye out for misuse.

From what I understand, this discussion spawned because of Sans from Undertale being the Final Boss in the Genocide Route, who's also labelled as a "Bonus Boss" for being incredibly difficult. Since you will have to fight Sans on that route regardless, he's not optional unless you describe the route itself as optional, so I think that particular misuse can be removed without much setback.

It sounds like they would qualify as a Route Boss, however, should we start that trope.

Ah, fair enough. So we can still rework Optional Boss into a super-trope and start up Route Boss, at least.

It's a pity to lose out on Secret Boss, however—that feels like a gap in the trope-structure to me, like a missing tooth!

FWIW, we have changed trope names for more accurate ones despite there not being any misuse before. Role Reprise used to be named Role Reprisal, but was changed because "Reprisal" meant something completely different. Role Reprisal was not being misused at all, it just wasn't the right name.

"Optional, extremely difficult bosses" are called "Superbosses", that's just a fact. The trope name should reflect that. "Superboss" already exists as a redirect, so really all we'd have to do is move everything over. I mentioned before that I split Full Motion Video into Interactive Movie, Pre-Rendered Graphics, and Live-Action Cutscene by myself and no one gave me any trouble over that, and there was rampant misuse going on in that case.

As we can see in the last five pages of this discussion, "Bonus Boss" can mean many, many things.

Edited by Primis on Dec 21st 2020 at 9:26:18 AM

Ah, that's good to know. So perhaps we can do that rename indeed.

Might it be feasible to get the new definition of Secret Boss off the ground, too?

About that... Wick checks for misuse even for simple name changes have become mandatory requirements now. With virtually no evidence for misuse found for Bonus Boss, we unfortunately can't proceed with making a TRS thread for it.

The wick check currently has the following stats out of 39 wicks on 25 pages:

• 5 secret boss (13%)
• 10 superboss (26%)
• 5 optional boss (13%)
• 1 route boss (3%)
• 1 true final boss (3%)
• 3 misuse (8%)
• 14 pothole/other (36%)

I'm kind of cheating a bit because most of the entries are zero-context potholes, but I'm classifying them elsewhere because I've played the games in question. Of all the pages I looked at, only 6 of them are proper examples of Bonus Boss on work or character pages rather than potholes on a trope page or under an example of something else.

Edited by Serac on Dec 23rd 2020 at 2:59:05 PM

Okay, I'm going to stop responding on the matter of changes made without a Repair Shop thread until it's clear what is and is not allowed! XD;

To my eye that looks like a good argument for at least some changes: Less than a third of examples are clearly in keeping with the trope as written; a full half of that value come from one of the proposed new tropes; and the same number would fall under the proposed disambiguation-turned-super-trope.

The numbers are fairly low—but that's to large degree because there's a large proportion of "pothole/other" entries taking up the classification-space.

~Serac, I got a few examples from Characters.Ys VIII Lacrimosa Of Dana to add to the wick check page. Since I have played the game recently and finished it, here are my stances with the examples.

• Bonus Boss (Master Kong): At certain points in the game, finding Master Kong will have him teach each party member an attack skill after beating him in a one-on-one match-up. Success will lead to that party member inventing a new attack skill from one of Kong's arsenal of techniques.
• Bonus Boss (Io): She is the Final Boss in Dana's solo adventure through the optional Sanctuary Crypt and takes on the form of a large dragon with a matching Stance System that Dana uses.

Master Kong is just an Optional Boss. You have to seek him out on the Isle of Seiren and give him a ripe mango to engage his fights, and he can be fought a total of six times per active party member. The first time you fight him is also tied to an optional sidequest as well.

As for Io, she is a Superboss who is indeed a lot more difficult than the Final Boss, and is intended to be a challenge to players who mastered Dana's play style. You really have to go out of your way to fight her too, like completing Eternian sidequests to raise Dana's virtue, rescuing spirits, and completing all five chambers of the Sanctuary Crypt dungeon. That being said, Io really isn't a Final Boss of any sort or even a Route Boss. That part is definitely misuse.

Edited by DivineFlame100 on Dec 26th 2020 at 9:45:15 AM

Ok, I can add those to the wick check later. And now that we're done with the Up To Eleven check, I should be able to finish this one.

Bumping to ask where we're up to. We are currently having a discussion about which bosses in Hollow Knight count as Bonus Bosses and are therefore prohibited from being That One Boss, so obviously the status of this discussion is relevant to that one.

Wrote up a sandbox for Route Boss. Only has one example so far, but obviously we can add more when I bring it to TLP.

Hello. I've got some examples from Characters.Bug Fables for the Wick Check:

Given that I played the game, I can provide context for ZCE, so you decide whether to include context provided by me or not.

Ahem!

• Kabbu is an Optional Boss; he is fought at the end of the sidequest together with Kali.
• Maki, Kina and Yin are Superbosses; they are fought at the Playable Epilogue and are much more difficult than the final boss, given that you fight all three of them at once, they possess huge HP, damage output, hard-to-block attacks and they possess high defenses (most of enemies in the game don't have defense above 1, and even 2 points of defense are considered high by the game's standards). And that's not even bringing up how Kina gets a stackable damage boost every time Maki gets damaged.
• Stratos and Delilah are Superbosses; much like Maki, Kina and Yin, they are fought post-game and are extemely difficult, given their huge health poll, high defenses (Stratos has 100 HP while Maki has 85, and both has defense stat of 3, which is considered a lot by the game's standards). They also have extremely huge damage output, very hard-to-block attacks (one of Delilah's attacks is More Dakka with unblocked hits resulting in receiving bad status effects, which include sealing off your abilities or items), and, unlike Team Maki, they can heal and even revive each other. The hardened player's damage per turn does not normally go above 15, and they both can restore 15 HP to each other on their own individual turns, meaning that they can restore 30 HP in one turn if not dealt with quickly.
• Tanjerin...well, I honestly believe he's the Superboss, albeit not as strong as others; he is fought only if you fulfill certain secret circumstances (possess 4 Tangy Berries in your inventory (or 1 Tangy Berry in your 4th inventory slot) after completing the Cave of Trials), possesses a lot of health (99), 4 points of defense (which is the biggest amount of defense of any entity in the game), and possesses lots of damaging attacks, but they are easier to block than Maki's or Stratos & Delilah's. And given the fact that you fight him after beating 50 enemy encounters in the row, you'd certainly be weakened and/or on low HP or items by the time you reach him.
• Kali is an Optional Boss; Dual Boss together with Kabbu fought at the end of her own sidequest.
• Carmina is a Secret Boss; you have to go out on your way to initiate a boss fight with her, and there are barely any hints at the fact you're going to fight her.
• Monsieur Scarlet is an Optional Boss; defeating him is a goal of the sidequest.
• Cenn and Pisci are Optional Bosses; defeating them is a goal of the sidequest.
• Riz is...well, he's not hidden (and in my first playthrough I actually encountered him by accident, and you cannot initiate his boss fight until you complete the Chapter 5). Normally, he would've been a Secret Boss, but he's not hidden and is easy to encounter, so I'd say he goes under the Optional Boss.
• Zommoth is...well, I feel like it's a ZCE, and, well, I'd like to provide the context; his fight is initiated in the huge sidequest that is given in the main story (but can be completed any time after finishing the Chapter 4), and it involves exploring the Bonus Dungeon. So I'd say that goes under the Optional Boss.
• The Broodmother is an Optional Boss; defeating her is a goal of the sidequest.
• Mother Chomper is a Secret Boss; she is encountered only in the Chomper Cave, and you have to go out on your way to find and fight her.
• Bounties are, well... I'd say they are Secret Bosses; while there are sidequests dedicated to defeating them and bringing their dropped items into a certain place, they can actually be fought anytime even without taking any sidequests, and you have to go out on your way to find them.

Sorry for the delay in response. ^^;

That looks fine, I think. Would you mind if I made some tweaks (without changing the meaning of the text)?

(These may each apply to multiple entries there; I just picked out one quote per point.)

I wonder whether that might not better be classified under "Route Boss", with the side-quest being essentially an optional "route"...

I stand to be corrected on this—it's been a while since the thread made decisions on the various definitions—but I don't think that "Secret Boss" actually requires the the character be, well, secret as such. Just off the beaten path—a boss that the player could easily not encounter.

Go for it.

Thank you! I'll hopefully get to it soon (it being Sunday here, and my being rather tired right now). I intend to post again once it's done! ^_^

Sorry for being gone for so long. What did I miss?

Not much. This thread pretty much immediately lost all steam once the issue of a wick check was brought up. Apparently, TRS threads are now required to demonstrate that there's misuse via wick checks to be opened, even if the issue isn't about misuse.

Gotta love pointless bureaucracy.

We can still do the new subtropes via TLP though. I made a sandbox for Route Boss that we can work on before we bring it to TLP.

Sorry for intruding but wick checks aren't solely to catch misuse- just trends in general. A wick check could support the thesis that new tropes should be made.

Yeah, not to be all "wick checks are the gospel", but it honestly makes the discussion go by so much faster when we're not just guessing or taking OP's word for it on how the trope is being used.

@Primis: Sorry for taking so long to get to that editing of the sandbox. If it's holding things up, please do just go ahead with the TLP effort. ^^;

Will you guys be making the TLP now, or can I add examples in the sandbox? I also have a draft for Route Boss posted earlier in this thread, maybe we can compare notes? I saw that my description is significantly lengthier for one.

Edited by Lermis on Feb 13th 2021 at 11:34:18 AM

I have no plans to go to TLP just now.

As to the your draft, I say to post it again, so that we can easily compare it with the draft above.