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wingedcatgirl Watch that pink smoke swooce right in from The Murder-Free Hotel
Watch that pink smoke swooce right in
Sep 3rd 2020 at 8:08:32 AM

The Canonical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions needs some coordination and cleanup.

  • It needs to be synced with the Laconical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions; every comparison needs to appear on both pages.
  • We need to avoid duplicate comparisons (A vs B shouldn't appear more than once)
  • But contrariwise, we also need to avoid overly-intricate comparisons (A vs B vs C vs D might be splittable into [A vs B, B vs C, C vs D])

The thing that spurred me into finally making this thread instead of thinking about it for another few months is this comparison on TropeDistinctions.G To I

I Just Write the Thing vs. Literary Agent Hypothesis vs. Writing by the Seat of Your Pants

  • I Just Write the Thing is a statement by writers that they didn't feel fully in control of how they wrote something, e.g. that they did it because it was the only way to keep the story interesting or they felt like their characters had a mind of their own. They do still admit that the story is fictional, just that it didn't go as planned.
  • Literary Agent Hypothesis is a fan theory where the author is an intermediary between the (real) characters and the audience. Unlike Direct Line to the Author, this has no direct support from Canon or Word of God.
  • Writing by the Seat of Your Pants refers to not having very detailed outlines of where you want the plot to go and making it up as you go along. It may be the style a writer always writes, or it may be dictated by something outside the writer's control going wrong and having to change halfway-through (especially in the case of a TV or movie production, as opposed to something like a book.)

It seems like this particular comparison should include Direct Line to the Author (since it... kind of already does), but TropeDistinctions.D To F already has "Direct Line to the Author vs. Literary Agent Hypothesis vs. Recursive Canon vs. A True Story in My Universe", and I am definitely not combining all of these together.

So my next thought was to split out "Direct Line to the Author vs. Literary Agent Hypothesis" from both of these but then that involves... so much rearranging and frankly I just need to make sure I understand the core of these comparisons before doing this much.

Edited by wingedcatgirl on Sep 3rd 2020 at 8:13:16 AM

Sylvi& | it/they/she | plural trans catgirl | Trouble Cube | avatar by Madame Butterfly Knife
WarJay77 Some like it hot from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Some like it hot
Sep 3rd 2020 at 12:26:31 PM

One thing that has always made navigating this list difficult for me is, how do I know which trope gets to appear first, thus designating the page the tropes are listed on? It's too confusing and we could use a better way of organizing them- or at least an easier way to figure out how they're organized.

Wick Check Project Official Sandbox (TM)
wingedcatgirl Watch that pink smoke swooce right in from The Murder-Free Hotel
Watch that pink smoke swooce right in
Sep 3rd 2020 at 12:29:27 PM

The first trope in a comparison should be the alphabetically first one. That's mentioned on the main page, though admittedly not too prominently.

That said, if someone sees "B vs C" and thinks "ooh, that comparison needs an A", they might unthinkingly turn it into "B vs C vs A".

Sylvi& | it/they/she | plural trans catgirl | Trouble Cube | avatar by Madame Butterfly Knife
WarJay77 Some like it hot from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Some like it hot
Sep 3rd 2020 at 12:31:13 PM

I guess that makes sense, but it should probably be more prominent, as I've personally never realized that.

Wick Check Project Official Sandbox (TM)
wingedcatgirl Watch that pink smoke swooce right in from The Murder-Free Hotel
Watch that pink smoke swooce right in
Sep 23rd 2020 at 2:03:42 PM

Brick Joke vs. Chekhov's Gag

  • A Chekhov's Gag is humorous, involving a joke being set up, paying off, being forgotten by the viewer, then much later paying off yet again.
    • Example: Family Guy - In a cutaway about random Discovery channel specials, Peter watches an Animal Documentary-esque program about the hunting rituals of fire engines. Later on, at the very end of the episode, a feral fire engine ends up on their lawn for another gag. Basically a call-back gag.
  • A Brick Joke is not solely about humor, and is plot-related. A minor, insignificant, or seemingly concluded event occurs, and the viewer is meant to think it over and done with. The event then recurs much later on to effect the plot in an unexpected way.
    • Example: Early in the plot, John Doe steals something insignificant as a show to the audience of how much of a rogue he is, and escapes the police. Later on he is shot, and it's revealed he never got around to taking the thing out his pocket, so the bullet ricocheted off of it, saving his life.

Two questions:
  1. Is that really the distinction? I thought Chekhov's Gag was the one that's plot-important and Brick Joke was the one that's not.
  2. Should we really have the "examples" there? The trope pages themselves provide plenty of examples; if we need an example to distinguish them then surely that implies the distinction isn't clear enough?

Edited by wingedcatgirl on Sep 23rd 2020 at 2:03:50 AM

Sylvi& | it/they/she | plural trans catgirl | Trouble Cube | avatar by Madame Butterfly Knife
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson.
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Sep 23rd 2020 at 2:51:38 PM

Yeah, I always assumed Chekhov's Gag was a joke that turned out to be a Chekhov's Gun, while Brick Joke was any joke that's called back to later in the story.

Nen_desharu Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire from Greater Smash Bros. Universe or Toronto
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
Sep 23rd 2020 at 7:50:10 PM

Groin Attack and Crippling Castration really need clarifications.

The former has numerous examples that belong in the latter.

For example, Cronos castrating his father Ouranos mentioned in GroinAttack.Myths And Religion belongs in Crippling Castration since it's obviously not funny and is permanent. The same can be said for all Played for Drama examples.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Sep 23rd 2020 at 12:42:34 PM

Kirby is awesome.
4tell0life4 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
Oct 14th 2020 at 4:46:11 PM

[up] Add Schrödinger's Canon there too

I remembered somebody argued that Schrödinger's Canon and Loose Canon's titles fit better for each other

We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza
LaundryPizza03 Maintenance? from Texas
Maintenance?
Oct 14th 2020 at 5:22:11 PM

Should Reality Ensues and Deconstruction be added to the list? An entire TRS and a cleanup thread were opened to address the confusion between then.

NRLEP candidates * ColorTropesCleanup
WarJay77 Some like it hot from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Some like it hot
Oct 14th 2020 at 5:27:25 PM

TBH, I still have literally no idea what Deconstruction actually means. I've never had it explained to me and everyone seems to think of it differently.

Wick Check Project Official Sandbox (TM)
Oct 14th 2020 at 5:40:07 PM

Using Deconstruction's page image, it's isolating a trope from its related tropes and seeing what happens if ran in Real Life.

Amusing Injuries remove expectation of Cartoon Physics, to result in devestating head injuries.

While Reality Ensues would be if Cartoon Physics still applied, so there's no damage, and it's used as an example of Nigh-Invulnerability or something?

Then again, Reality Ensues is under repair...

Edited by Malady on Oct 14th 2020 at 5:40:53 AM

Help with possible disambig and redirect issues!
WarJay77 Some like it hot from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Some like it hot
Oct 14th 2020 at 5:41:38 PM

No, Reality Ensues is meant to show the real-life consequences of unrealistic tropes. That image seems to also be RE because it shows what would happen in reality.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 14th 2020 at 8:42:14 AM

Wick Check Project Official Sandbox (TM)
jandn2014 Hangs around Image Pickin’ a lot from somewhere in Connecticut Relationship Status: Hiding
Hangs around Image Pickin’ a lot
Oct 14th 2020 at 6:42:05 PM

A good explanation on the difference between Reality Ensues and Deconstruction was said in the former’s TRS thread. Basically, the main difference between the two is that the former unexpectedly subverts a trope when it seems like it’ll be Played Straight, while the latter initially plays the trope straight, but examines the realistic consequences of the trope being used.

Here are some examples that were brought up in the thread, both for Pooled Funds:

  • Reality Ensues: Bob tries jumping into a pool of gold coins, but injures himself due to the pile still having the property of a solid object.

  • Deconstruction: Bob tries jumping into a pool of gold coins and isn’t injured, but later falls ill from inhaling so many airborne particles of gold.

there's nobody here
Oct 14th 2020 at 6:55:40 PM

Deconstruction is more general and doesn't have to be deconstructing a single trope.

Merseyuser1 from Greater Manchester, United Kingdom
Oct 15th 2020 at 2:00:12 AM

[up][up][up][up][up][up] How should this be written?:

In Spite of a Nail vs For Wantof A Nail vs The Stations of the Canon:

This isn't the full thing, just ideas for a starting point.

Oct 21st 2020 at 5:55:32 AM

So, Setting Up Relationships had 1 vote to talk about this here...

Not sure what's fit for this thread vs. that one, but ok...

Prophetic Names vs. Steven Ulysses Perhero.

They describe each other on their pages...

But I'd think Prophetic's description of Perhero is better than Perhero's description of itself?

Focusing on powers only, instead of expanding to roles.

Like future killers named Killer are prophetic but not superheroic.


Is this just for suggesting new distinctions and stuff?

If so, maybe add Meaningful Name into it? ... Gonna check if that's already been done...


Should we have an index of all tropes that have been distincted, so we don't have to search through 4 pages to see? ... Then again, it's only 4 pages, and Laconic should be used as the guide...

Edited by Malady on Oct 21st 2020 at 5:57:29 AM

Help with possible disambig and redirect issues!
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