What exactly is (or isn't) Memetic Mutation?

i was debating on whether or not this was merely an "Is this an example?" post but i think, ultimately, my problem is my lack of comprehension of the trope's definition itself.

so on hololive i deleted two examples fairly recently (the second, more so):

• "Cut the fourth wire." ^Explanation Based off of an infamous collab between Haato and Coco (with Marine spectating in the background) where they play Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes. Haato has distinct trouble relaying the instructions to Coco in English and repeatedly advises her to this. Whether or not it actually was the right wire is a bit of a toss-up.

• X-Potatoes^Explanation Comes from Korone's Blasphemous stream, where she attempted to pronounce the name "Expósito" and it came out as "X-Potato". The chat ran away with it, and Korone found it funny, so it frequently pops up whenever Korone attempts to speak English (though the name is actually Spanish)

i looked up both on YouTube for the funnies and came to realize the first one was a "meme" that was really just one instance of a Japanese streamer's generally tenuous grasp on English reading comprehension, so that was a no-brainer delete for me.

the other one, however, actually did eventually spill over into some future streams, but i ended up deleting it after considering this post and this thread, since the "Memetic" is there but the "Mutation" ultimately wasn't as it didn't escape the confines of one streamer (and the meme itself didn't change).

just to make sure i was on the right track, i made an "Ask the Tropers" post to get some clarification and ended up leaving with more questions posed by others over questions answered:

• is Memetic Mutation's definition too harsh on obscure works?
• how much of an audience does a meme need to be a good example?
• if a meme spills over to other people without much (if any) alteration, is it still a bad example of Memetic Mutation?

basically i am just extremely confused on what makes Memetic Mutation what it is. the only sure thing that i understand is that this site (or, at least, a few people) doesn't really prefer memes getting dumped verbatim.

The trope is about memes. Simple as that.

Now, what are and aren't memes, that's YMMV.

that's what i assumed it should be, but the few posts that i found from the search bar (that weren't part of the Forum Games section) gave me the impression Memetic Mutation is more about quality than quantity around these parts. also, the whole "we're not Know Your Meme" bit the actual page implies.

granted, i'm probably reading too much into the opinions of a single moderator, and like you said it's YMMV.

i should probably just post the damn examples to "Is this an example?" and be done with it

Sorry, I don't care what work has been done in TRS, but Memetic Mutation is not "about memes, period". We do not trope memes. Memes are not tropes.

Well Memetic Mutation is not exactly a trope either, right?

I think it is *supposed* to be about extremely widespread memes that permeate outside the fandom itself, ala “treat yo self” from Parks and Rec.

...Which is a type of meme that is something that can be used in a wide variety of situations (or tweaked to work in many situations), so people take it from its original context and use it in real life conversations in many different ways.

Does that sound right about what we mean by Memetic Mutation, it's mutated from its original context into something more?

(And if so, is it tropeworthy because it's a recognizable pattern of things taken from works; not tropeworthy because it's a real life phenomena rather than a pattern in works themselves; only tropeworthy when it's used in works?)

Memetic Mutation is another one of those pages like Getting Crap Past the Radar and Deadpan Snarker that has been so thoroughly misused by so many people for such a long time that nobody even knows what it's supposed to be anymore. It needs a trip to TRS.

Strictly speaking, it's an Audience Reaction and Not a Trope. Personally, I think that widespread stuff like Azumanga Daioh giving us the word "waifu" or Portal's "The X is a lie" are worth recording because of their impact on the culture around them.

Edited by Serac on Jun 6th 2020 at 9:47:32 AM

Can't we have "local (i.e only among the specific fans) memes" listed here?

My concern as stated on ATT is that obscure works have less reach and thus won't qualify as being Memetic Mutation even if the work's fandom have a variety of memes; either it's about wide-ranging memes in general or fandom memes and those are two wildly different things.

Honesty, I think “fandom memes” is the best way to define the trope. Defining it as “widespread memes” is too restrictive.

Me too. "A quote or scene that fans love repeating or referencing in many different contexts" sounds like a valid Audience Reaction to me, even if it's more of an inside joke for the fans than something mainstream.

Yeah, exactly. Basing it around scope and reach is pointlessly restrictive for such an otherwise inclusive site; it puts an aspect of notability into the mix where there wasn't before, giving us different standards depending on the work we're talking about- and most memes are fandom memes anyway but come from bigger fandoms, giving them more reach even if they never actually broke out of the fandom bubble.

Just makes a lot more sense to go the "Fandom Memes" route. I don't care if we have to restrict what qualifies as a "Fandom Meme", so long as smaller fandoms aren't restricted entirely.

I wasn't aware that we are having a Memetic Mutation discussion here until now, so I'll just post one of my comment I've made in the "Is this an example?" thread here. This comment takes a look at definition from TV Tropes itself (in the past and present) and IMO reaffirms what the last 4? tropers have been saying:

Looking at the the earliest version of the Memetic Mutation page, this line:

" a 'meme' is usually described as a catchy derivative of some aspect of pop culture, parodied and repeated to the point that its origins and original meaning become muddled. "

seems to be more or less what @Fighteer said, so perhaps it WAS the original definition.

However, if you take a look at the latest version of the Memetic Mutation page, the same sentence now only say:

" a 'meme' (rhymes with "cream") is usually described as a catchy derivative of some aspect of pop culture, parodied and repeated over and over. "

Just that.

—

Is that not proof that the definition of Memetic Mutation has been changed from

" we don't want memes here on TV Tropes unless they're memes that spread to other works "

to

" used in/with different contexts (and preferably variable in its form) ",

?

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P.S. I know the latest article also says " Which means we don't want them in TV Tropes articles " later, but surely that's referring to fandom memes being randomly dropped in an article (with no explanation etc.), and NOT when documenting them?

Edited by truesord24 on Jun 6th 2020 at 5:34:18 PM

I always thought MM is when its widespread in its own fandom and but not just any meme.

For example in Fate/Grand Order, there's a whole bunch of memes. But the most widespread, that i can think of right now, are Gacha is a Lie, X is a Swallow, Long Maintenance, X When.

Edited by WhirlRX on Jun 6th 2020 at 2:46:53 PM

The original intent of Memetic Mutation is a meme... that mutated. That means it became something other than what it was originally based on. All fandoms develop memes, but this is TV Tropes, not TV Memes or TV Inside Jokes. Memes are not tropes in and of themselves (they are audience reactions), but we require audience reactions to fit into a trope bucket, not just be any random opinion someone has.

Like I said on ATT, I get the intent behind the whole "We're not Know Your Meme" thing, but isn't it about not wanting the memes to spread throughout the wiki, like on example pages or in trope titles? Why would documenting memes be a problem if we don't actually spread those memes?

In addition, if the issue is about "Memes are not tropes", then why is TV Tropes allowed to have pages (Namespaces) like Awesome, Funny & Tear Jerker?

In fact, those Namespaces don't even require any tropes to be named, so why is it a different case for Memetic Mutation (which can be a Namespace in itself too)?

Edited by truesord24 on Jun 6th 2020 at 8:20:29 PM

well, this blew up while i was asleep

this is reading more and more like an "old vs. new" kind of deal the more i ask about it

Awesome is a namespace for Awesome Moments, Funny is a namespace for Funny Moments, and Tear Jerker is a namespace for, well, Tear Jerker.

Admittedly, these fall into a weird space of grandfathered wiki history, carried over from when people used to vote on which was their favorite awesome moment, etc. If I were designing them myself today, I would handle them a lot differently, but that's water under the bridge (TV Tropes 2.0 notwithstanding, should that ever happen).

The Memes/ namespace is not grandfathered; it grew recently. Before then, we curated Memetic Mutation a lot more ruthlessly. "Because people like doing it" has never been a valid reason in and of itself to allow something.

And we've given several valid reasons why these memes should be acceptable.

It's not just about "Because people like doing it" though. Please take a look at @WarJay77's comment above.

@WarJay77 made some good points in saying that this is some arbitrary restriction we are putting on Memetic Mutation that is straight-up unfair on smaller, more obscure fandoms (since they might not be widespread enough to reach "mainstream" status).

I too believe this is a major opposition on our freedom to write, as inclusive as possible, on TV Tropes.

And I also believe it is unfair that only Memetic Mutation is curated this way when other tropes are allow to continue operating unrestrictedly, regardless of when they are created.

Edited by truesord24 on Jun 6th 2020 at 9:18:04 AM

i think i'm gonna have to agree with the old guard that posted here, there's literally an In-Joke index with two things that fit the bill more for "just memes" e.g. Call-Back or Running Gag (unless those tropes only apply to fictional settings and not real life things like a Let's Play series)

edit: when i actually read the Running Gag page it really does sound like it fits the bill for all of those Memetic Mutation examples-that-are-not-examples, the only thing that makes me not 100% sure is that its description makes it sound like the trope only applies to scripted running gags and not impromptu ones

Edited by Freecom on Jun 6th 2020 at 3:57:21 PM

You also have Ascended Meme as well.

@Freecom, funny enough, your latest comment might have actually solved our original dispute (Now that I think about it: due to the quite-unique nature of hololive; Call-Back, Running Gag, Ascended Meme are virtually the same thing as "just memes" as the viewers directly interact with the streamer and have a great amount of power to change the content).

And thanks @Whirl RX for your suggestion too!

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Still, I stand by what I said because for most other works, the issue still applies since the "just memes" of those fandoms have nowhere else to go.

Edited by truesord24 on Jun 6th 2020 at 9:44:22 AM