Complaining: Bad Writing Index

Per ATT, the Bad Writing Index has been attracting Edit Wars over adding what are/were deemed not examples requiring ATT to resolve on a now regular basis, I estimate at least once a week. At this point everyone agrees this needs to be addressed.

Two options have come up:

• Cut it as accusing these tropes as innately bad violates Tropes Are Tools and attracts confusion with tropes that attract dislike or mishandling as opposed to being innately bad.
• Keep but lock it and require all entries/addition be approved as it is useful as a guide for writers and understanding audience reactions and how tropes work.

Cutting would be the quickest fix, but we would lose a lot of useful content and 35,171 inbounds. Plus it might encourage complaining elsewhere if it's not defined what is or isn't bad writing.

I personally would go for keeping but requiring examples to be approved as, when used straight/unironically:

• They detract from the Intended Audience Reaction.
• Their definition make them theoretically impossible to be used well, with well received uses too rare to suggest a consistent way for them to be done well.

If we go with the latter, we should cleanup the page to better reflect the intended use and go through the existing examples to see if they count or need rewriting to better explain why they are examples. Relatedly, there was debate if gaming tropes count if they're not technically writing flaws, we should figure that out. Maybe rename Bad Writing Index "Index of Narrative Criticisms" or something the would include non writing related issues.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on May 18th 2020 at 10:34:51 AM

I’d be down for either proposal, I’ve had some of my own entries on the index (those being Uncanny Valley and Excuse Plot) get deleted because “they can be done right”.

It could also become Flame Bait.

Appears to be stealth opened, as I did send a holler to this thread.

Edited by GeneralGigan817 on May 24th 2020 at 4:47:05 AM

Was this stealth opened, or is it a glitch?

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I'd suggest locking Bad Writing Index and require any additions to be approved. I think this page is worth keeping as it can be a useful tool on what to avoid when writing a story.

Agreed.

back lol

I'd say get the padlock attaached.

IPP Wick Check created.

We could set up a crowner.

If it doesn't get cut entirely, a lock would be a good idea.

Edit: Also, if we don't delete the page entirely, we should do what the Scrappy Index thread did and use a crowner to see which tropes should and shouldn't be on the index.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 24th 2020 at 10:10:10 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

To answer your question, ~War Jay 77:

It's likely that another moderator went ahead and quietly opened it. So, hardly a glitch.

---

Now for the topic at hand: I can get behind making it a locked page.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

Lock it and have a permanent thread for suggesting changes.

my brain is a computer with 4k of ram. this is a jokes wiki

Would it be in long-term projects, or would we just use the locked pages thread for that?

Anyway, I can see why this needs to be locked.

Lock, it's been nothing but trouble. I wouldn't mind cutting it either or at least renaming it to something less bash-y, like "Common Writing Mistakes index" or something, but even then...

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

When I first learned this page wasn't locked I was mystified. No matter what else is done with it, it should definitely not be left open to random passing edits where anyone can rant about a trope they personally dislike.

(Honestly, I favor a cut, but I think there's at least some room for arguments in favor of keeping it.)

Edited by nrjxll on May 25th 2020 at 2:28:56 PM

Yeah, favouring a lock here. I've just went through an edit war involving whether Generic Doomsday Villain is an example of bad writing or not, and I cannot afford to see another like this.

MB Pending | MB Drafts | MB Dates

I don't think that locking is quite enough here. To me this does sound like a fundamental problem with the index - it's a subjective list of tropes. Everyone's going to have a different opinion on whether a given trope fits. It's not like Audience Reactions, which is quite objective.

If memory serves the normal solution for subjective indexes is cutting.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Just taking a cursory glance at the listed tropes I'm inclinced to cut. A lot of them aren't even "bad writing" but historian's fallacy or audiences reading into something that wasn't planned by the authors.

I say cut; it's always struck me as an inherent violation of Tropes Are Tools.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!

Agreed with cut. For sure there are certain things that are *widely regarded* as shoddy writing (eg. Stuffed in the Fridge) but I don’t think it’s in line with the wiki vision to list them out.

To me this page is similar to what went on with Scrappy Index, ie. tropers will always find some way to dislike a trope, even if tropes are not bad.

I support keeping it and locking it. When learning how to write well, people need to learn how to write poorly. That's just part of the process of learning to write stories. There's value in hosting a Bad Writing Index. This index is not saying "these tropes are poo-poo / bad / horrible" but rather "these tropes contribute to poor writing," so I fail to see how this index fundamentally violates Tropes Are Tools.

I'll copy+paste what I said in the discussion page for Bad Writing Index:

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty

I do think we could go with less of a harsh name then "Bad Writing Index" and make the writing on the page a bit less negative.

back lol

Honestly we could probably burn off all the trope descriptions. Most of those are written as though part of a "do's and don'ts" list. "Don't use this" should be rhetoric we avoid.

We should also trim the compare / contrast section. For example, a Pet-Peeve Trope is not the same as this, and the "common causes" of bad writing should be purged or moved to the description.

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty

I'll make a crowner for this later. Are there any options I'm missing?

• Cut.
• Lock and curate.
• Do nothing.

^"Renaming to something less negative" was also suggested.

Ok, I made a crowner.

Noting here that "rename" and "lock/curate" aren't mutually exclusive, so if both reach consensus we can do both of those things.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness