Never Live It Down Cleanup

I found this in the DCU page and am tempted to cut the entire thing. It's a Wall of Text with Natter, complaining and outdated information.

Any opinions?

I agree with your takes.

Damian also isn't a particularly new character at this point.

Can Never Live It Down apply to a work as well as a character? The MCU has been coming under fire lately for a decline in the quality of their CGI, and people almost always use a certain scene from Black Widow (2021) as an example.

No, it can't. It's NRLEP and character specific in definition.

YMMV.Infinity Train Blossomverse

• Never Live It Down: While these mostly exist within the first story of the verse, the reaction they obtained is so prominent that they can't be left in that story alone, especially as some of them are repeating problems:
  • The narrative's favoritism towards Chloe. This is mostly kept in the first story, but it's done in such a hamfisted, melodramatic way that most readers have developed a cautious approach towards how the character gets written in the later stories.
  • Chloe's many negative traits, including her inability to both take responsibility for her actions and explain what's going on. While she eventually grows as a better person, people aren't quite willing to forget her unbearable personality in early Blossoming Trail, to the point that nearly every variation of her in the stories is expected to have some of these improved traits no matter what or you see backlash from even other co-writers who are generally sick of this take on Chloe.
  • Parker's anger issues, violent tendencies.
  • Mallow is an interesting character as a former Passenger, but good luck bringing her up without mentioning how she kept the Train a secret from her friends, despite facing off literal aliens from other dimensions in the Sun and Moon season. Part of the reason is because many incarnations of her character keep this trait intact, but the most common reason is how arbitrarily it is to add tension to an already tension-heavy story.
  • Ash's horrible treatment during the early parts of Blossoming Trail are kept on that story's early parts alone: later entries try to cut him some slack, and even the original trilogy learned its lesson and actually stopped putting him through the wringer. But the way it was done was so brutal and dependent on biased Insane Troll Logic that some reviewers just refuse to forget about this.
  • Like Mallow, Trip is an interesting character with potential, but it's impossible to talk about him without mentioning that 1) He gets together with Ash, and 2), he did so after effectively sending him plummeting into a severe Guilt Complex.
  • Professor Cerise's treatment, while nowhere near as severe as Goh, is still something fans aren't quick willing to forget, as it involves consistently painting him in a bad light while pulling some hoops to justify it.
  • The Apex and the story treating them as the greatest evil of the Train. It was at the most intense in the first story and prequel, and the sequel at least tried to rectify it by revealing their reputation was highly exaggerated. However, the story spent so much time building them up as utter bastards that needed to be stopped while the Train had Passengers who had done even worse things than them that the readership just couldn't let this one slide. Not helping matters is the fact that, outside of the original trilogy, no other story that features them does anything different with their reputation.

This is a very contentious story so this is suspect of complaining/misuse. Only the first part states how it is a fan exaggeration, but saying "some of them are repeating problems" seem to argue against itself.

Any of this salvageable or just ax it all?

The only one that seems to fit is Mallow's, but not knowing the work I can't say for sure.

Everything but Mallow can be safely axed, and I think even her point is suspect.

I've suggested it before, but I feel like this fic series should have a dedicated cleanup thread with how much complaining I've seen directed towards it.

Edit: Thread has been created here.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Aug 27th 2022 at 3:51:03 AM

NeverLiveItDown.Literature

• Little Women: Amy March burns Jo's book manuscript as a child, is chosen by Aunt Carrol to go to Europe instead of Jo, and marries Laurie, whom countless fans consider Jo's soul mate. For these three reasons, she's been subjected to a century and a half of Ron the Death Eater.

Not sure if this is sufficient to explain how a fan exaggeration, or if this is a better fit for RTDE. Thoughts?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Oct 23rd 2022 at 5:34:18 AM

That entry has nothing to do with Never Live It Down. I'm not sure it's even a RTDE entry because it's not explaining how the character is twisted in fanfics, just why.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Oct 27th 2022 at 4:12:24 AM

It's missing important context about these portrayals being demonized or flanderized... it just says "she did bad things so fans don't like her", which isn't either trope.

EDIT: I think it should be commented-out, at least for now.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Oct 27th 2022 at 8:47:26 AM

That's not context for Never Live It Down, though.

Yeah. There's not even enough context there to salvage it as a RTDE example (because the exampe needs to be about the RTDE traits, not what people are complaining about in the canon). I'd just scrub the entry.

I was bringing that up because you said there had to be demonization or flanderization, which is part of RTDE.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Oct 27th 2022 at 10:46:41 AM

I was saying that the trope didn't have context for either concept. "Demonization" is a major part of RTDE, but not NLID.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 27th 2022 at 11:33:59 AM

To be fair, you suggested the NLID entry had to have context regarding her depictions experiencing flanderization or demonization via stating the example was lacking those things.

What I keep trying to say is that I was referring to both NLID and RTDE in my post, not just NLID. So the point is that you misunderstood why I brought up "demonization".

Ok, though to be fair, you didn't specify. EDIT: It's ok, though.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Oct 27th 2022 at 11:08:40 AM

Removed these as about the work not characters. Bringing here to see if they can be reworked to character examples.

• Batman & Robin: There's the infamous "Bat-nipples" on Batman and Robin's costumes. Sort of a Double Standard when you consider all of the flattering outfits female superheroes tend to wear without comment.
• For better or for worse, Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice is best remembered in pop culture as "that movie where Batman and Superman stop fighting and team up after Batman finds out their mothers are both named Martha". Fans of the movie have argued there's more to the scene than the shared name (namely that it shows how Batman realized that the man he painted as a monster has loved ones like he does), but detractors complained it was inherently ridiculous that their burying the hatchet hinges on Batman doing a total about-face when Superman says the name "Martha". Might be valid NLID for this version of Batman. Question if hatedom examples apply or if it has to apply to all versions of the character (is that only Audience-Coloring Adaptation?).
• Can Can is known primarily as the film that prompted USSR Premier Nikita Khruschev's infamous and widely mistranslated "WE WILL BURY YOU!" speech. Even the Widescreen Museum acknowledges that fact when the film comes up in its Todd-AO section on page 12, which begins by mentioning his reaction to the filming of a scene featuring Juliet Prowse as the Serpent for the In-Universe ballet adaptation of the Biblical story of Adam and Eve.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Nov 25th 2022 at 12:41:30 PM

Never Live It Down definitely does not have to apply to all versions of a character, IMO.

Case in point: Superfriends Aquaman is listed on NeverLiveItDown.The DCU.

I'm not sure if Aquaman actually counts because it's just the whole ass portrayal, and not a single moment that people blew out of proportion.

I agree because Never Live It Down applies to one moment.

It's a better fit for Audience-Coloring Adaptation anyway.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/NeverLiveItDown/StarWars

• Some people (Tumblr, predominately) aren't so quick to forgive Kallus after his characterization in "The Honorable Ones," never mind accept a possible redemption arc from him, mostly due to practically escorting Tua to her assassination while taunting her back in "The Siege of Lothal" (also not forgetting that he's burnt down Tarkintown, blockaded Ibaar, etc.). Most of the same people also think that the arc should've belonged to Tua or someone else that hasn't been already depicted as villainous as Kallus, although some have pointed out that this trope and arguments will likely be applied and addressed in-universe later on in Kallus's character arc."

This entry needs to be removed as ultimately his murder of Tua (and even Tua herself) was never brought up in the show after it occurred. I'd remove it myself but the page is locked