Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment - Violations, misuse, and other issues

Nobody would even care about Sister Floriana if the person who made the page hadn't also made a page for a work that was strictly alt-right and impossible to trope due to a unique situation, so it's not like its existence is platforming anything significantly more than other political works we host. We don't ban a work just for having some questionable material in it (unless it's pedo shit). It has to be impossible to trope without crossing a line. I think we're drawing more attention to it by freaking out that we might need to cut it.

Edited by mightymewtron on Feb 28th 2021 at 9:31:05 AM

Logging on to look up complaints about Far Cry 4 and sitting in the 'most recent edits' page is this? https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Webcomic/DogNigga

Page is empty except for an image of the apparently titular character. For all I know this has been launched completely properly and will soon be populated by appropriate tropes but my instinct was to bring it up here in case it was not.

EDIT: Checked a few minutes later and the page has been somewhat updated, it now has a characters page with a picture of anime Dracula, and the following description "Rex is a half man half dog. He was created when a drunk old man forced himself on a stray female dog in the street. Because of his father, Rex has to live his life as a freak rejected by society. So one day... he’s gonna find that man, and rape HIM."

Is this... um... what?

Edited by Elmo3000 on Mar 3rd 2021 at 2:28:34 PM

Don't know if that's a ROCEJ issue, but it might be a content policy issue.

I don't know if this is the right thread, but can I get rid of the "trap" section on JustForFun.I Thought It Meant? I know that it's a slur when you're talking about trans people, so I don't know if we should be using it to talk about crossdressers.

There's some subbullets that use the word correctly, so I'm not concerned about those. I'm only looking to delete the entries I put in the folder.

I don't believe "trap" is inherently offensive when used to refer to crossdressers, and some people identify with the term. I say leave those examples.

Besides being an unindexed, tropeless stub, Dog Nigga sounds like it may not fly under our content policy. It was just made by The Soldier 9298, whose edits all relate to this comic.

Edited by rjd1922 on Mar 3rd 2021 at 11:13:27 AM

I disagree. Seems to me the tropes don't really aply there. As a trans woman, trap can be offensive, even thoug some peeps identify with it.

"Trap" is one of those weird cases where some of the group in question see the word as a slur and some use it to describe themselves, although the first group is in this case quite a bit larger. (Somewhat like "queer" in the late '80s/early '90s, which was eventually reclaimed, or the repeated cycle between "black" and "Negro" prior to about 1970.)

I'd say that section should stay. The word "trap" is (or at least, used to be) good with crossdressing or otherwise Dude Looks Like a Lady / Lady Looks Like a Dude characters. Look at this video, it was made only five years ago, yet people appreciate the "trap" joke in the comments.

Edited by Piterpicher on Mar 4th 2021 at 12:44:30 PM

You can't really say a word's not offensive because a Youtube comment section likes it. If anything that's more evidence for it being offensive.

The majority of trans women I've come across on Twitter dislike "trap" (and I personally do, though I'm not a trans girl) but that might not be the unanimous pinion even among that community. At least the entries are speaking neutrally about crossdressing and not trans people, I guess? But I'd chill removing them, better safe than sorry.

We should be talking about "trap" as applied to crossdressing men, not trans women, because the examples are about crossdressing.

My understanding is that using the word "trap" like this, whether it be towards trans women or cis crossdressers, implies that AMAB people who don't conform to gender norms are deliberately trying to trick straight men into becoming gay. This narrative is not only homophobic, it's been used as justification for murdering trans women, so it's understandable that many of them are very uncomfortable seeing that word used at all.

“Trap” is definitely considered a slur, and a YouTube video’s comments from several years ago don’t justify its usage- values can change quickly nowadays, and as mentioned above, I wouldn’t say YouTube comments are a good standard. I haven’t seen “trap” being reclaimed by anybody either, so I’m in for just cutting the entries.

Edited by jandn2014 on Mar 4th 2021 at 12:20:34 PM

Part of the reason "trap" makes us leery even when applied to crossdressing cis men is that there's a substantial segment of people who use the word specifically as a method to ignore that there is a difference between trans women and crossdressing cis men.

Not exactly sure why we zeroed in on a Youtube comments section, as there are plenty of other places it is used, including by crossdressing men to describe themselves.

We're not here to act as language prescriptivists.

Trap has a really ugly history with transphobia and being used by crossdressing, cisgender men doesn't really change that.

I say cut.

As silly as it is to get deep into the etymology of the word "trap", the notion that it is a "slur" is very, very recent indeed, and not something widely agreed upon. The word was initially used to refer to crossdressing men, not trans women, and it mostly still is. That said, I have definitely seen trans women using it to refer to themselves.

It is mostly a playful, fetishy word (which is another can of worms entirely). It's your call whether or not it's better to remove the entries on the words of ROCEJ, but rest assured no trans person will get murdered if we leave them up.

I'm not exactly comfortable leaving the "trap jokes" either, but being that I am a cis-bi male, I would defer to someone who is actually from the trans community, such as winged or Del. Since they hoth clearly have a problem with the trap jokes, I think it is clear that the jokes are crossing a line.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 5th 2021 at 4:39:54 AM

Yeah, this is my take. No one troper can speak for the entire trans community, but given that we have multiple people saying it's offensive to them, I'm inclined to defer to their opinions.

I remember this old ATT query I made. Some arguments coming from both sides, but in the end it was decided to remove the word "trap" from an example, with the transgender commenters all agreeing that it's offensive.

I'm giving a to not using a word considered by the trans community to be a slur.

So, seems like the majority vote says to get rid of those examples.

Ok, I'll remove them then.

That discussion kinda bothered me.

I have only one example written for the Transgender page, and I will admit I added it back when it had its former name. At this point, its first sentence is nearly unreadable without additional unprovided context, because someone else edited it to remove an apparent slur.

The Castlevania: Symphony of the Night entry about the Frozen Half, which is described by the game as a "new-half ice spirit".

The thing is, I've never heard the term used as a slur in my life. I've heard it used as slang, but that's a different thing, and the game only uses it in a descriptive manner. In fact, the existence of the term is the only definitive evidence that proves that the character was intended to be transgender. And she's a character I've only thought about positively, particularly in the context of her connection to one of the game's bosses.

Meanwhile, I can't read the term "trap" as anything but a slur, since its very use implies that the described individuals adopted the opposite gender for the sole purpose of tricking others with malicious intent. So to hear that term get more defenders...

Well, that person was totally in the wrong there. As stated in the ATT above, the slur should be kept if it's needed to illustrate the example (in theory, that could apply to ITIM examples above as well), and as you said, the word "newhalf" is just slang I haven't heard anyone be offended by (it's a tag on Danbooru, but no-one seems to have to want to change almost a thousand pics with it).

And I'm not for defending the term in particular, but I'm just against removing things because they're only considered offensive now. I want to still be able to enjoy jokes that people used to laugh at years ago from works made during that time, even if they're not considered pleasant these days due to an opinion shift. The newest of the deleted entries, for Trap Master, was written in 2017.

Edited by Piterpicher on Mar 6th 2021 at 7:27:44 PM