Hate Sink cleanup

I don't think he counts because he has moral agency issues, so I feel it should be cut.

Okay, I went ahead and cut it.

EDIT: I also went through the pages referring to him as a HS and replaced to potholes with Manipulative Bastard.

Edited by GenericGuy2000 on Dec 24th 2023 at 4:12:13 AM

Late, but please scrap the Kyubey and the Loyal Three Hate Sink entries. For all I know the Loyal Three lack agency and I'm sure Kyubey is Memetic.

Memetic? I always found Kyubey hateable.

Does Jules Archibald from Emesis Blue qualify as a Hate Sink?

Again on the Anime and Manga page:

• Attack on Titan:
  • The nation of Marley as a whole can be considered this, especially the upper government. As more of the situation is revealed, they become far more nuanced, but the fact that they're basically the Nazis makes it difficult to really sympathize with them. "They become far more nuanced but..." isn't a good sign, plus I don't think an entire nation of people can count, at least from my understanding.
  • Karina Braun is an incredibly petty and delusional woman, manipulating her son down a path that destroyed his life and eager to do the same to her niece. Even her moments of affection towards Reiner are tainted by her constant lies, and inability to comprehend her son's pain. She's one of the few characters in the story not involved in any position in the military or the authorities, that has absolutely no redemptive qualities, save for realizing what a terrible person she's been too late to make a real difference. What makes it worse is that she cannot even be called "crazy"; she's just a terrible person altogether. Regardless of being seen as Unintentionally Unsympathetic, the fact that she feels remorse for her actions and apologizes to Reiner in the ending should negate her qualification for this trope.

Possibly, but I'm not familiar with the work so I'm not sure

• Yeah that seems like a stretch to me too since it's a whole nation and (from my experience at least) Hate Sink usually applies to a character. As written, I feel it violates Administrivia.Examples Are Not Arguable too. So, I feel it should be removed
• Maybe she could work as a subversion, but I could be wrong. If not, I feel she doesn't count since (as you said) she apologized to Reiner and experienced My God, What Have I Done?

@AustinDR: Per @43110's statement. Kyubey being hated by the fandom is a meme by this point as far as I know. It's not like some of the actual Hate Sinks somewhere else where literally nobody makes fun of or memes on them.

Edited by Mr-ex777 on Dec 30th 2023 at 4:11:51 AM

How much of a Hate Sink really is John Allen Hill from Cheers?

His tropelist lists him as someone 100% unlikable, but tbh he's entertainingly hateable, like Newman from Seinfeld. He's a total snob but that's the whole joke and the comedy comes from how he drives Sam insane.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Dec 29th 2023 at 5:24:33 PM

Your points sound rather disjointed tbh Ex. Kyubey is a callous manipulator and his whole shtick being taking desperate teenage girls into signing contracts with him that will inevitably turn them into monsters is why he's so despised by the fandom but in the work itself he's cast as the principal antagonist, is part of a Hive Mind with a very pronounced case of Blue-and-Orange Morality and is at the very least strongly indicated to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist. It's just not the right character type to put Hate Sink on, I don't think this is what Urobuchi was going for, even if QB is a massive asshole.

Kyubei was cut on 24th Dec, is there a need to discuss further?

(x3) I don't think he's a Hate Sink because he seems too comedic. Plus, he does care about his daughter and has at least one Pet the Dog moment.

Since I'm playing through this Doorstopper of a game, from Persona 5: Palace Rulers under Mammon/Okumura's folder:

• Hate Sink: Downplayed significantly compared to the other Palace Rulers. Okumura is a terrible man guilty of rampant worker abuse, corrupt business practices, and trying to marry his daughter off to an abusive spouse for political power, but he is framed more as a man who lost his way a long time ago and could've been genuinely good had things gone differently, unlike the vile bastards Kamoshida, Madarame, Kaneshiro, and Shido are shown to be. This makes his death considerably more tragic, as unlike them there was a genuine chance of him turning over a new leaf.

I have not gotten to this character's arc yet, but the entry notes them to be a legit Tragic Villain compared to the other abusers and scumbags the Phantom Thieves come into combat with, so it's a clear cut.

Also from the Shin Megami Tensei page:

• The Holy Grail, Yaldabaoth is another horrible piece of work as well as it is saying something that he accompanies and wields all the Seven Deadly Sins. To start things off he refused to accept the point of the conflict between the two wild cards Joker and Akechi, so he imprisons and impersonates Igor, separates Lavenza into Caroline and Justine forcing them to serve him, and rigs the entire story to get the apathetic citizens of Tokyo into serving him. Everything that happens with Shido above is Yaldabaoth's fault; Joker's unjust prohibition and undeserved reputation? All a part of Yaldabaoth's plans. This Control Freak loves to use the Diabolus ex Machina to create multiple Darkest Hours, and drastically changes the beliefs of the apathetic masses in the Phantom Thieves such as rapidly increasing their popularity after "stopping" Medjed and drastically decreasing it when they are falsely blamed for Kinikazu Okumura's murder. Things get worse by December 23 when he convinced the masses that the above-mentioned Shido's Change of Heart isn't one when it is impossible to happen, so to see Satanael shoot Yaldabaoth at the end of this fight is satisfying. Unlike Shido and Kamoshida however, it's invoked because he is literally made out of the most detestable aspects of herd mentality and obsession with order and stability amongst the general public.

Isn't Yaldabaoth the innate desire of humanity to have perfect order at all costs and thus has a degree of moral agency preventing him from being fully hatable unilke the human Palace targets, this also reads like CM-lite as well

Edited by xie323 on Dec 31st 2023 at 9:56:22 AM

Yeah Okumura's not a Hate Sink. He's a scumbag to be sure, but everything that ends up happening with him is treated as more complex than some of the other targets who actually are meant to be purely hateable (IE Kamoshida).

In addition to being a CM-lite entry, Yaldabaoth also has some clear Evil Is Cool factors going for him (such as his impressive angelic giant robot One-Winged Angel mode and his genuinely cunning plan to play both sides by hijacking Igor).

Edited by TheGrayFox on Dec 30th 2023 at 6:52:04 AM

Both sound like cuts to me. EDIT: Looking back, I should've specified why; The Holy Grail has at least some moral agency issues and I feel Okumura is too sympathetic count even as a downplayed example.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Feb 4th 2024 at 2:38:15 AM

Would Mojo from X-Men the animated series or Wolverine and the X-Men count? He is a pretty repulsive villain with no redeeming qualities in both shows, but he is kinda funny in both shows.

Okumura's own entry is self-contradictory. "unlike the vile bastards ... considerably more tragic" naturally invalidate the example.

Evil Is Cool is not a factor against Hate Sink, but Yaldabaoth is still a nearly-successful and grandiose demi-god with an ego to match.

Okumura can be removed for being playrd for sympathy. And Yaldabaoth is too grandiose a bad guy to be a Hate Sink especially compared to shido whose more a straight example

I saw that Jabba was listed as a Hate Sink. I don't think he fits though, right? His legitimate love for his son is the biggest prevention I can think of.

In the extended material probably not, but in the movies he's only known for being a Fat Bastard, ruining Han's life, serial Go-Go Enslavement, and unceremonious death.

Edited by Amonimus on Dec 31st 2023 at 1:19:58 PM

Yeah the entry could probbaly just speficy it's film only.

Just changed it.

Found this in Koko's entry here. Should I just crush it or keep this here?

• Hate Sink: While she looks adorable and initially acts nice and innocent the final part of a new day seemingly reveals Coco as one of the most hatable characters in the game, especially after she kills Neku. Actually subverted when we find out that's her trying to get Neku back to prevent Shibuya from being erased.

Edited by Mr-ex777 on Jan 2nd 2024 at 12:52:00 AM

I'd argue that you can't really "subvert" a Hate Sink.

The "characters seems to be really bad, but then there's a big reveal" would most likely fall under other tropes.

Yeah also seems like the DLC is a Sequel Hook and Koko being an HS was never the intent to begin with.