KnightOfCerebus and related tropes cleanup

The examples in the Theater folder all come from single installment works. Is it ok to delete them all?

I'm wondering if part of the reason Knight of Cerebus (as well as Complete Monster) tend to to be misused is due to Missing Supertrope Syndrome. Specifically, I don't think we have a general trope for "villain that is evil, scary, and a real threat to the heroes", which is a supertrope to Knight of Cerebus, Complete Monster, Faux Affably Evil, Not-So-Harmless Villain, and others.

This is the Evil Counterpart to the Ideal Hero, and is sort of the default expectation for villains. Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain, Anti-Villain, Harmless Villain, and others are all aversions to this.

Do we need such a trope?

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

That's villain. A villain is by default supposed to be evil, scary, and a real threat to the heroes.

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Does anyone think Wolf Spider from Ultimate Spider-Man counts?

I haven't seen it. Is he noticeably worse and more serious than the other villains?

Can anyone comment on the theatre examples?

Probably. He was talked about on this thread (and approved).

Depends, what is his role in the narrative? Is he more serious than previous villains? Does the series get darker once he shows up?

Again, Knight of Cerebus is not equivalent to "edgy, hardcore villain". Not all Knights are C Ms, and not all C Ms are Knights.

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Re Theatre: I don't see any valid examples listed. And it's pretty hard for a play to be a serial work.

Edited by naturalironist on Feb 12th 2019 at 6:25:08 AM

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

Evil Coop is listed as a Knight of Cerebus in his character sheet in Megas XLR. Here is the entry in question.

• Knight of Cerebus: His arrival marked the one time the show took itself semi-seriously. He's so dangerous that Coop actually abandoned his usual strategy of attacking blindly and planned beforehand on forcing Evil Coop through the dimensional gate and forcefully shutting it while he's still in it in order to defeat him.

That seems valid, although it could use maybe a little more context about how the plotline or themes changed in response to him.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

Any ideas?

Evil Coop was in what ended up being the Series Finale. The show got canceled and never had a chance to change in response to him, so we'll never know if he counts or not.

He was the final opponent, so the series never had a real chance to switch back to goofy.

I'd say so- this trope is gonna need a lot of cleanup.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.

Heh, you posted that just as I was moving the thread (which I decided to do after seeing that it was inactive for a few years), so there's that.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 25th 2022 at 11:35:42 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

It has been several months and not one post has been made.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.

Oh hey, this is a thing. Allow me to throw my hat in with a franchise that honestly doesn't really seem conductive for this trope having read the description: Looney Tunes.

• Marvin the Martian: Knight of Cerebus: Was intended to become this after Yosemite Sam became less of a threat to Bugs Bunny. He still loses every time, but his plans to blow up the entire Earth manage to terrify Bugs in a way his other enemies are incapable of, especially because of his motive: Earth obstructs his view of Venus.
• Yosemite Sam: Knight of Cerebus: Pre-Villain Decay, he was this compared to Elmer Fudd, as Elmer was an Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain and Yosemite Sam, while still clownish, acted out of malice.
• Daffy Duck: Knight of Cerebus: Astonishingly enough, Daffy is actually this to the rest of Speedy Gonzales's Rogues Gallery. While still highly comical in tone, the situations Speedy was placed in were sometimes a lot more dire against Daffy, who stands as the only villain competent (and malicious) enough to hold ground against the mouse, even beating him a couple of times. He even whips several poor mice in "Assault and Peppered" and tried to keep mice from drinking out of a well For the Evulz in "Well Worn Daffy". (And unlike Sylvester, he does a formidable job fending Speedy off in the latter.)

So even disregarding that they fail the serious requirement tenfold (even Bugs delayed reaction to Marvin's scheme is played for comedy) even after they were introduced the series was still heavily lighthearted and silly. With Daffy in particular, the Speedy shorts he was in were considerably Lighter and Softer than the usual cartoons, even if Daffy admittedly Took a Level in Jerkass.

Viler New Villain, perhaps?

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Mar 6th 2023 at 6:53:40 AM

NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE

The first two are describing something - the fact that the creators felt Elmer was so pathetic it made it hard to root for Bugs, so they introduced more threatening antagonists to fix that, is pretty well-known and referenced in a couple of places on the wiki. But it's not really Knight of Cerebus.

I agree, it should be cut.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.

Yosemite Sam and Marvin the Martian are already on Viler New Villain, so their character folders could be changed to list that instead.

Keet cleanup

Back with another example: Sister Thornley from Time Squad:

• Knight of Cerebus: All of her acts are played seriously.

So ignoring that this is is ZCE, second she disappears from the first episode (when Otto get's picked up by the titular squad) the series dives head-first into zany comedy. It sounds like she completely fails to permanently change the mood.

NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE

Where is this permanent changing of the mood coming from? I see nothing about that on the page itself just references to how the character considerably darkens the tone of the work when they're onscreen. The only refence I could find to the permanent mood change was on Vile Villain, Saccharine Show.

I do agree that example should be cut but on Zero-Context Example grounds.

Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 23rd 2023 at 7:03:58 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid

Suspended someone for an edit war re-adding this entry to Characters.Dungeons And Dragons Honor Among Thieves with no discussion, but I still don't believe it's an example:

• Knight of Cerebus: The only character in the film to have absolutely no comedic qualities whatsoever, being a cruel and ominous conqueror and warlord.

He is a scary and cruel villain, but he does not induce a Tone Shift in the work. Sure it gets a little ominous whenever he shows up and whispers affirmation to his minions, but his role in the film is only to be The Man Behind the Man — the heroes defeat the Big Bad and celebrate, and it never stops being a lighthearted fantasy adventure.

Permission to cut again?

I've said a couple of times that I think there's a missing supertrope to both Knight of Cerebus and Vile Villain, Saccharine Show that's just "a villain who's darker than the rest of the work" - and looking up I see naturalironist brought it up in this thread as well - which that kind of thing might fit better under. (I don't agree that that's simply the definition of a villain as we have plenty of tropes about nonthreatening villains).

But yes, it's not Knight of Cerebus if they don't induce a tone shift.

Edited by nrjxll on Apr 3rd 2023 at 9:37:29 AM