During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Stragen: I'm an agnostic, Divine One.
Vanion: Would you like to examine that last sentence for logical consistency, Stragen?
Stragen: Consistency's the mark of a little mind, my Lord.
I have to admit that said exchange really dont work for me. Like, really, that sounds more like something that someone from r/atheism would say.
I still vote for him, but that quote just sounds annoying
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Benedict
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 10th 2018 at 3:13:35 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Mastermind, Stragen, and Benedict
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Master, Strage, and Benny
I've decided this example from Dies Irae(Visual Novel) should be cut until further notice:
- Magnificent Bastard: A close call between Reinhard and Karl but props to Karl for after ascending to higher plane of existence he located the only thing that could possibly kill him and became friends with it.
So I found this non context example in Panty & Stocking with Garterbelt
Magnificent Bastard: Corset.
Since I just watched this anime (just look at my current pic), I doubt anyone qualifies for this tropes, given its premise being similar to western animation shows like South Park and Drawn Together. Any other thoughts before I cut it?
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 10th 2018 at 12:15:22 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
to Benedict. I'll do the write-up on Hifdzi at a later time... Mainly it's kind of hard which things that should I focus regarding him. That, and the fact that him and his acts are a huge spoilers until the end will also make it a little hard to make but I'll see what I can do
Shin Megami Tensei IV
As usual, cut until someone brings them up for re-evaluation... though I'm going to echo G about Corset: doubt we'll be seeing him again.
Elfen, for your writeup I'd recommend you do what Lighty did with his L.A. Confidential guy... use his name as sparingly as possible so I can just spoiler tag the references and leave most of it uncovered.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Alright... Let me see what I can do at a later time mayne! And hopefully while I add that write-up...There will be no page lock bug which I have to admit is kind of a bit annoying
By the way, catching up... yes to Benedict, yes to Smith, and I lean yes to Vincent ultimately.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Oh yeah, speaking of another examples that hasn't been approved yet. I've got two:
- From The Book of Eli: Despite being the most evil son of a bitch in the movie, Carnegie does have a certain charm to him that makes one see why people are willing to follow him. Being played by Gary Oldman certainly helps.
- From Suikoden II: Shu
@Lightysnake @43110 I knew that you're familiar with these works. (Suikoden for the former, Book of Eli for the latter). What says you?
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jul 10th 2018 at 6:56:22 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Cut Corset for being a Zero Context Example and for being way too silly to count.
My desire for Season 2 of PASWG is getting high again.
Shu would definitely be at the heroic end of what this allows. I'd need to review a bit to see if he's 'bad' enough. But he is an unbelievable genius
Carnegie is a hard no. His veneer of suave affability shatters the minute shit doesn't go his way and becomes a ranting mess. Furthermore, the fact he chooses to pursue Eli at all instead of seek medical attention for the shot to his leg is heavily implied to (going to) be the death of him and when his mistress informs him of that, along with seeing the town fall into riot against his rule just has his slump down, defeated, isn't the personality or decisions of someone rational and audacious enough for this trope. I think they're taking the fact he was played by Oldman and running with it way too far.
My last Michael Mann film candidate...
What's the Work?
Last of the Mohicans is a rather underrated film, concerning Nathaniel "Hawkeye" Bumpo, the adopted son of the Mohican tracker and warrior Chingachgook, raised alongside his biological son Uncas. Now, we're in the Seven Years War in America, with Natty and family getting involved for the British....and our villain? The Huron warrior...Magua.
who is Magua?
Long ago, Magua was a young Huron warrior who fought with his people...then the British came. In his own words? Magua's village and lodges were burnt. Magua's children were killed by the English. I was taken a slave by the Mohawk who fought for the Grey Hair. Magua's wife... believed he was dead, and became the wife of another."
Magua ostensibly serves 'the Grey Hair,' Colonel Munro, but is in truth a double agent for the French. After conniving his way out of slavery by becoming blood brother to the Mohawk, Magua has rejoined the Huron, and seeks to revenge himself upon Munro and avenge his children by killing Munro's daughters, Cora and Alice. Now, the film ges going when we learn Magua? When he gets away with it, leads British patrols into ambushes of Huron and French soldiers. Chingachgook and family come to their defense and rescue Cora and Alice, Magua prevented from killing Cora only by a hair. However, Magua manages to get around this and connives to cause the fall of Munro's Fort with General Montcalm of the French...before tricking the British into thinking they have safe passage, sweeping down on them and massacring the soldiers before personally confronting Munro, informing him he intends to kill Munro's children "so your seed is wiped from this world forever" before he finishes by carving out Munro's heart.
He proceeds to pursue Natty and Uncas, who have been safeguarding the women, manages to capture them and brings them to a Huron village to ask the sachem for judgement...Natty arrives with Colonel Duncan Heyward, the only surviving officer and attempt to bargain with the Huron elders. The Huron elders decide they'll burn Cora, make Alice marry Magua and everyone else goes home happy. Magua is understandably enraged by this and storms off from the village with Alice, though Heyward sacrifices himself to be burnt to save Cora. In the final sequence,Uncas catches up to Magua to save Alice and the two duel, with Uncas losing hard and dying....Chingachgook arrives in time to see his son die. And then delivers a massive Curb-Stomp Battle on Magua, who cannot touch the veteran Mohican chieftain. Chingachgook utterly disables him and then impales him through the chest before kicking him to the ground to bleed out and die.
Is he charismatic? A good manipulator?
It's hard to call Magua 'charming' because Wes Studi plays him as a Huron warrior was expected: calm and stoic. Nonetheless, Studi plays Magua as brimming with energy that comes out when he passionately describes his painful backstory, his love for the Huron and his sarcasm when he speaks in Huron so none of the white officers know what he's saying. As far as manipulation? Magua plays the British army for chumps constantly, schemes to completely cause the fort's downfall and is one chat with the elders away from achieving everything he wants. He's unmistakably charismatic, and the only time he comes close to a breakdown is when the elders decide he has to marry Alice, causing him to furiously denounce the council. He's surprised, obviously, when Chingachgook beats him down, but he handles it pretty well, without a word of protest, even leaning in to receive the final blow and remaining pretty dignified, all things considered.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Now, for a lot of the movie, Magua's only a bad guy because his goals go contrary to Team Hawkeye. He intends on bringing the British to ruin in retribution for them massacring his children, causing his enslavement and having him lose his wife forever...the issue is while Magua has every right to kill Munro on that front...he goes too far and targets Munro's comparatively innocent daughters in revenge by proxy. He's a merciless killer as well, brutally slaughtering Uncas without a flicker of expression.
That said, Magua loves the Huron people, loved his dead children and clearly loved his lost wife. While he's going to, presumably, marry Alice, he's just as upset about it as she is. Now, after Uncas dies, Alice chooses to throw herself off a cliff and curiously, when she goes up, Magua holds his hand out to her and gestures for her to return. As he's utterly stoic in this scene, it's quite debatable if he's only making a token effort to save her, or is actually sincere about it because he has his orders from the elders, or if he genuinely sympathizes with her.
Conclusion?
I'd give him a keep. A fine villain, to say the least.
Easy "yes" to Magua, and someone should probably take a look at his literary counterpart (be warned: despite the claims of "it's a classic" it really, truly sucks). Both the film and the book really, really want you to hate him, and in spite of that, you just can't, given who he is, and who the heroes are.
Yes to Magua
Yes to Stragen and Magua
Ultimate Moral Compass
Magua
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Magua. A case where a Designated Villain ends up going up here.
How bad is the original novel?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Basically, Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy due to Evil Versus Evil?
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 10th 2018 at 9:13:25 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Mark Twain said of it that "in it one hates the good and the bad alike and wishes they would all get drowned together."
I can Magua
Goku Black
magua
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Alright, here's the belated Hifdzi's writeup...Man, writing him up is kind of a chore and this ended up being superfluous in detail and pretty wonky as a result. But needless to say, here it is:
Target (2018 Film): Raditya Dika’s friend, Hifdzi Khoir, is revealed to be the mastermind behind the misery that Dika and his other friends has endured. Prior to the main story, he kidnapped a master hypnotist’s wife and ordered said hypnotist to become a decoy mastermind for his own game. Disguising himself as a butt-monkey in the group for the deadly games that the decoy mastermind prepared, Hifdzi pretended to be electrocuted by the shock collar that isn’t even functioning so that he could trick the other contestants to keep playing the game. When one of the contestants was supposed to die with electrocution after defying the decoy’s masterminds orders, Hifdzi pushes her into the elevator shaft. Despite Hifdzi saved the remaining survivors of the game from the bomb that was set by the decoy mastermind, it was all the part of his plan to die in his masterpiece’s climax and in the end of the film, he gets away with everything. Despite having ruthless methods for finishing his masterpiece, Hifdzi did all of this to impress his late father who killed himself because he was struggled to pay his debts and he clearly detests modern movie studios always fabricated their own movies.
I'll add this to the drafts. @43110 You know the drill! You can fix the awkward wordings and grammars and truncate some unnecessary sentences to make the write-up better 
And a yes to the Last Mohican candidate btw.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jul 11th 2018 at 6:11:18 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Alright, my next Suikoden effortpost...
Suikoden 2 is one of the best damned games ever for my money, and the premise? Now, the countries of the Kingdom of Highland the Jowston City States have been....in an uneasy peace after a brutal war some years ago. The hero, Riou, is a member of the Highlander junior troops' corps, the Unicorn Brigade (think like the equivalent of boyscounts as a military unit) alongside his best friend Jowy....and then? Highland's royal prince, the psychopathic Luca Blight massacres the unit to frame Jowston and start a new war because he's a goddamn psycho. Now, Jowy and Riou escape, and start helping a small mercenary fort, only to graduate into assisting entire city states against Highland...both are gifted with a True Rune. In fact, each has half of THE True Rune, the Rune of beginning. To Riou, the Bright Shield, the Jowy the Black Sword...and fate has decreed they will be enemies. Jowy...slowly emerges as the Big Bad of the game himself.
Who is Jowy?
Jowy Atreides is a member of the noble Atreides family of Highland. Framed for the crime of betraying the Unicorn Brigade, Jowy becomes a criminal in Highland, rejected by his family and even by his mother. Now, he and Riou end up in the Jowston capital of Muse, where they're sent on a mission to sabotage Highland's supplies by Lady Annabel, the leader of Muse...in the mission, Jowy is captured and later returns, claiming to his friends he escaped. It's a lie.
Jowy betrays Muse, and upon a secret meeting with Lady Annabel, mortally wounds and assassinates her, throwing Muse into turmoil so Highland can seize it, driving Riou and the others out on the run again, in shock at their old friend's betrayal. It turns out Jowy? believes that Highland and Luca Blight cannot ever be defeated on the field, so he has opted to fight from within. Jowy remains in the background until a decisive battle against one of Luca's top generals at a seemingly hollowed out and useless fort turns the tide...Luca furiously has the general executed and then asks for the next volunteer to take the City of Greenhill...and who should volunteer but Jowy himself, who says he barely needs an army to take Greenhill.
In a move of utter strategic brilliance, Jowy, with Luca threatening execution should he fail, releases all the refugees and prisoners back into Greenhill...knowing Greenhill lacks the supplies and food to feed and care for them all. He lets internal strife do the work before he has his army just march in and take the city without a fuss. Riou, now the leader of what is called the Dunan army, manages to fight Highland's troops off and rescues Greenhill's mayor, but encounters jowy, who lets him and Riou's adoptive sister Nanami go. Soon after, Jowy is formally knighted in Highland, a process that involves bleeding a few drops of blood into wine and the king drinking it in gratitude...it turns out Jowy conspires with Luca Blight, poisoning himself and drinking antitoxin beforehand, fatally poisoning King Agares as Luca ascends to the throne. Jowy, however, secretly conspires along the Dunan Army so well they don't even know it, and has Luca assassinated by them, . He then proceeds to marry Jilia Blight, Luca's sister, and take the throne as King Jowy Blight I...
He promptly sends peace accords to the Dunan army, but it turns out it's a trap. Playing on Riou's feelings for him, he proceeds to try to take him and Nanami hostage, this only failing because Riou's top strategist Shu sees ahead of it and uses Pilika an adorable orphan Jowy deeply loves, as a human shield. However, a traitorous lord attacks both, which results in Nanami's seeming Heroic Sacrifice for them and prompting Jowy and Riou to fight side by side one final time...and the war carries on.
Highland loses, but at the city's fall, Jowy is nowhere to be seen. Finally, Riou tracks him down alone to the place where it all began and they promised to return...and Jowy forces him into a final duel. The heroic general vs. the 'evil' king of Highland...in the bad ending, fighting back kills Jowy as he passes the Black Sword Rune to Riou...but in the good? Riou refuses to fight, only defending against Jowy, who reveals he's dying from his rune. Refusing to take the rune means Riou will heal him with the Bright Shield and Lady Leknaat, the gatekeeper of fate, informs Jowy while his sins are great...he can do more to atone by bettering the world while alive. In the good end, Nanami is revealed to have faked her death as not to fight Jowy and also not to be a burden to Riou in the fighting. The three set off as one together, on a new quest, after Jowy bids a silent farewell to Jilia and Pilika....with the road open to them again.
Is he charming? Charismatic? Manipulative?
Jowy is a serious Nice Guy. He's gentle, kind, pleasant, friendly and wins people over easily. He does most of the talking and planning, and as a leader? He's shockingly charismatic. Notably generals follow Luca out of fear, but Jowy? His top generals are shockingly loyal to him and he's able to rally his troops very well. As for manipulation? Jowy plays a long game. So long, most people have no idea what he's even going for, or even that he's even playing it. He's in control over most events, and is so subtle most people have no idea how deeply he's actually manipulating them. Easy pass here.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Jowy...betrays Jowston, assassinates Lady Annabelle (who's a good person and a great leader), he keeps a brutal war going, murders King Agares, manipulates Jilia into marrying him and tries to take his former friends hostage to secure victory. He does a lot of bad things in the game. Having Luca killed is an ac of public good, but Agares is nowhere near as evil as his son (he's a weak, cowardly man, but not evil).
Thing is, his intentions are ultimately benevolent. Jowy is a case of I Did What Ihad To Do. He believes Highland is too strong and decides to fight it from the inside, but slowly becomes convinced peace cannot be achieved and the country must fight to the end for a new one to be born. Everything he does is based around this. Everything. Furthermore, Jowy deeply loves Riou and Nanami, has intense moral standards unlike some Lucas we know, and while he's a shockingly effective strategist, he prefers to get things done with the least amount of bloodshed humanly possible. There's also Pilika...a sweet little village girl whose family is butchered by Luca Blight and goes mute from shock when Jowy rescues her from Luca himself. He loves Pilika deeply like his own child later, and saying goodbye to her is one of the most heartbreaking moments of the game when Jowy thinks he's going to die and tells her that this farewell is forever. There's also Jilia...despite using her as a political tool? Jowy genuinely falls in love with her, and Jilia reciprocates it completely. She reveals she knew about Jowy's ambitions, but didn't care because she believed in him and Jowy sends her and Pilika away for their own safety at the war's end, but before he departs on his journey of atonement, you see him watching them at their house, clearly longing to join them, but knowing he has more to do before he can.
Conclusion?
Jowy is an easy, easy keeper here. A fascinating, utterly complex Anti-Villain and one of the best parts of Suikoden 2.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Benedict
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."