During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
If Owl's already listed they'll go first... I'm gonna make this as easy as possible on myself.
I didn't notice the flurry of fables EPs when I had posted mine, phew. Looking over them I'm also concerned about the length of some, even the longer ones are less Magnificent Bastard and more "they pull one clever trick to demonstrate the aesop". I'll give a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Beetle from the Beetle and the Eagle, that fable is actually a proper short story and the Beetle has a fair bit of characterization. But the rest, eh, I don't think they're long enough to really qualify.
I'm going to abstain from the other EPs as I'm not familiar with the works myself.
Edited by DrakeClawfang on Mar 10th 2022 at 8:00:52 AM
Hey guys so got a pair of candidates from a movie I watched. The movie in question is Beirut so lets talk about it
What’s the Work?
Beirut, also called The Negotiator in the United Kingdom, is an American political thriller film released in 2018 that’s set in 1982 during the Lebanese Civil War. The film stars Jon Hamm as the former U.S. diplomat, Mason Skiles, who returns to service in Beirut in order to save a colleague from the group responsible for the death of his family. The person who kidnapped his colleague is Karim Abu Rajal.
Who is He? What Has He Done?
Karim Abu Rajal was a 13 year old boy and younger brother of terrorist Rafid who was rescued by Mason Skiles and his wife Nadia where they let him stay in their home. However Karim would be kidnapped by Rafid where Karim was forced to become a terrorist for Rafid in order to survive.
When Rafid gets captured Karim takes over Rafid’s terrorist organization, The Militia of Islamic Liberation, where kidnaps Mason’s friend Cal Reilly holding him hostage to get Mason and the American government to return his brother to him threatening to hand over Cal to Iran should they not comply to his demands.
Karim would keep tabs on Mason to make sure that Mason is holding his end of the deal and retrieve Rafid for him, which includes having a kid give him a note luring him to a secluded place for Rafid capture and would detonate a bomb at a conference and use that as a opportunity to tell Mason where to meet Karim before blindfolding him and taking him to where Cal Reilly is being held to prove that they do have him.
Karim would give Mason six hours to return his brother in exchange for Cal. Eventually Mason is able to retrieve Rafid and returns him to Karim in exchange for Cal. Karim hands over Cal to Mason while Rafid attempts to kill Mason only for himself to get killed by a Mossad sniper, while Mason and Cal are able to escape.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
As the eventual leader of The Militia of Islamic Liberation, Karim proves himself to be very cunning and charismatic, orchestrating the kidnapping of a CIA operative while manipulating events, such as using a bomb explosion to discreetly tell Mason where to meet Karim ,that would get his brother freed from prison, while using his charisma to get the terrorists, kids, and government officials to serve his needs.
What’s The Competition Like?
Being The Heavy of this film he scores big in the competition with the majority of US officials being too smug and greedy, and his brother has committed a slew of atrocities under his belt. While Mason may also count, among the foes Mason face, Karim is them most cunning and charismatic by far.
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?
Well Karim is a terrorist that has killed people, include some innocent casualties in the bomb he detonated, kidnapped a CIA official and was willing to sell him off to Iran if his demands are not met, and is orchestrating a plan to break his terrorist of a brother out of imprisonment so yeah he’s a bastard.
That said Karim is not too much of a bastard as he is never sadistic or radical in his crimes admitting he only became a terrorist to survive the harsh civil war in Lebanon after Rafid kidnapped him, admits that Mason’s wife was a good person who didn’t deserve to die, keeps his word and releases Cal upon seeing Rafid and despite recognizing how monstrous his brother is, love him nonetheless and mourns his death when Rafid gets killed.
Final verdict?
I’ll leave it to you guys.
Edited by G-Editor on Mar 11th 2022 at 10:58:32 AM
This post was thumped by the Stick of Post Thumping
Wild Child
Hey, I have a question regarding one of the entries here.
- The Tale of Despereaux: Roscuro used to be a rat living in a ship, accidentally causing the death of the Queen of Dor due to his imprudence and causing Dor to become a gloomy place. Taken by the tyrannical Boticelli Remorso, Roscuro becomes his servant, helping him in the oppression of the other rats of the rat world with guilt, even helping Despereaux due to their mutual curiosity for the outside world. Intending to atone for his actions, Roscuro tries to apologize to Princess Pea but is harshly rejected. Resenting that, Roscuro manipulates the naive Miggery "Mig" Sow to kidnap the Princess by faking kindness before locking her in a room. Realizing his own awfulness after seeing Pea's despair, Roscuro betrays Boticelli and dooms him to his death, apologizing for his actions and returning to his life at sea after Dor returns to its former radiance.
This entry is on the Literature page, but the YMMV states it's for the movie.
I recall having my doubts on this entry, as I watched this movie quite a bit as a kid. Rewatching it now, I kind of question if he's both magnificent or bastardly enough. Throughout the movie, Roscuro is a firmly good person who just happens to be under the wing of the villain, Botticelli. "Helping him oppress the other rats" doesn't happen; he's never shown taking part in any of Botticelli's cruelty; if anything, he tries to lessen it when he can, such as when he saves Despereaux. His one actually cruel action, manipulating Mig into abducting the princess, is a one-off mistake driven by hurt and despair, and he almost immediately feels remorse and undoes it.
But let's say that one action is enough to cement him as a bastard. Is he magnificent enough? Again, his one bastard moment is manipulating Mig, who, well, isn't exactly the smartest person. Roscuro basically tells her that locking the princess away in the dungeon will make her princess, and she more-or-less goes along with it without even thinking about it. Every other action he does, from saving Despereaux or helping defeat Botticelli, is heroic.
I'm really thinking he should go. Roscuro is portrayed as a misguided, but intrinsically good person who does one bad action that he immediately repents of, and said bad action isn't really all that magnificent. Thoughts?
Why so serious?
I’ve been reading the Green Bone Saga recently, and instead of doing an EP on any of the Ace Attorney characters I was going to, I’m going to do one on the main antagonist, Ayt Mada.
What is the work
The Green Bone Saga takes place in the island nation of Kekon, not very long after a war of independence. Kekon is known best for its Jade Bone warriors, people who have the innate ability to wear and use jade to gain power. There is only one way to be able to use jade without being born Kekonese, and that is to take a drug known as SN 1, colloquially known as shine. Kekon is essentially ruled by two mafia clans, the No Peak and Mountain clans. The clans are ruled by their respective Pillars, with the Horn (generally a respected and powerful warrior) and the Weather Man (generally a respected and powerful businessman or politician) being their right hand men. The story follows Kaul Lan, the Pillar of No Peak, and his siblings as they are brought into conflict with our resident Magnificent Bastard candidate Ayt Mada, Pillar of the Mountain clan.Who Is Ayt Mada and what has she done?
Ayt Mada is the adopted daughter of the former Pillar of the Mountain Clan, Ayt Yugontin. Mada believed that she was the best candidate to be the next Pillar after her father, and felt scorned that he didn’t name her as his successor upon his death. Immediately after her father’s death, she killed everyone loyal to her father in the clan including the Horn of the Mountain, as well as her rivals in succession, in order to achieve her goal of becoming the new Pillar. She plans to make the Mountain Clan the only clan in Kekon and to control both jade and shine output to the rest of the world so that the smuggling of both dies and Kekon maintains complete control of jade to the entire world, ensuring they remain on top. In order to do this, she smuggles an immense amount of jade from the mines in spite of the Kekon-Jade Alliance, which is meant to prevent such things. She convinces Yun Doru, the No Peak Weather Man, that what she does is for the good of Kekon and turns him to her side, having him act as an inside man in the No Peak clan. She orders the assassination of Kaul Hilo, the Horn of No Peak, because she knows that Lan won’t bend to her will while Hilo lives due to his strength and the inevitability of a losing war without him. When the attempt fails, she decides to have one of her stronger warriors duel Lan in order to suss out his power and find out if she’s been underestimating his strength. She also had Anden, a boy adopted into the Kaul family, kidnapped to have him send a message to Lan stating in no uncertain terms that she wants them to merge, and she also hopes to rile Hilo up so that he does something impulsive that she can take advantage of. When Doru is ousted as a traitor and Kaul Shae takes the place of the Weather Man, Mada tries to convince Shae to join her, and even Shae, an intelligent person herself (to the point where I could write an EP on her as well), admits that Mada’s plan is exceptionally cunning, even if she ultimately doesn’t agree due to her loyalty to her family.She proves that she is stronger than No Peak on both a tactical and a physical level during the clan war, where she has the advantage in every way, targeting and taking control of some of No Peak’s best districts, with her jade stockpile giving her a major advantage. She also discovered the coup d'etat planned by Ven Sando simply by noticing that Hilo, now the Pillar, has not made any major moves in a while. She assassinated one of No Peak’s biggest supporters on the Royal Council because she knew that his vote alone would cause a bill she was interested in, allowing refugees from another country into Kekon, to fail. When No Peak assassinates the black market smuggler Zapunyo, it’s revealed that she expected this and had one of her own at Zapunyo’s side so that she could take over his business once he died. By doing so, she could use the aforementioned bill to allow her new gangsters entrance into Kekon as payment to get them to betray Zapunyo, giving the Mountain clan seven thousand new members, and also giving her almost complete control over jade on the black market. She would buy back much of the jade on the black market, which would make the jade that remains more expensive for her to take a cut of the profits from, thereby inflating her own coffers to be able to make otherwise unsustainable purchases to steal No Peak’s businesses and weaken them.
Her big plan to crush No Peak begins when she installs a spy to be the mistress of business tycoon and massive conglomerate owner Art Wyles to gain severe blackmail on him. She forces him to relinquish his company and all its assets to her, giving her completely unregulated jade mining operations to do with as she pleased, an opening to break into Espenia, another country which No Peak spent decades building a relationship with, the complete loyalty of the criminal underworld in a different country, and the partnership of the largest mercenary corps on the planet, Ganlu Solutions International, which causes even her Worthy Opponent Shae to admit that Mada is, and I quote, “a master strategist on a level she couldn’t hope to match”. Naturally as her big plan, it is the most decisive move that she makes, something that demands immediate response from No Peak with the understanding that if this deal happens, Ayt wins. It takes No Peak coming up with three separate plans all working in concert to take her down, and it only happened because they did all three at the same time and Mada, who could have predicted and stopped one, couldn’t have stopped them all. Even after her defeat, she still makes plans to save her own life, restore her power, and kill all of her enemies, succeeding at killing Hilo in the end.
Is she a bastard?
I’d say so. She’s very opportunistic and will stop at nothing to achieve her goals. She’s more than willing to murder and sabatoge her enemies in order to see her vision of a powerful, united Kekon, having thugs hired to disrupt No Peak businesses and planting rats in the middle of No Peak territory. A few years later after there is peace between the clans but war elsewhere in the world, she tries to discredit Shae and get her removed from her position by starting a campaign declaring her a traitor of Kekon due to her past actions as an Espenian informant, using the war and the distrust of foreigners due to the war as fuel for the fire. In doing so, she gave a devilish decision to Shae where no matter what she does, if she steps down or stays in her position, No Peak is weaker as a result.Can she think on her feet?
I believe she can. One of her plans to frighten Lan went wrong due to the actions of an opportunistic bastard, causing Lan’s death and all out war between the Mountain and No Peak, whose Pillar is now Hilo, to be declared. She didn’t plan for this, but she is more than willing to work around it in her attempt to turn Shae, and biding time with a peace conference that she knows will break down and fail because she wants Hilo to make himself look like a poor fit for Pillar and show that No Peak is doomed in front of the politicians and bureaucrats that they’re in the meeting with so that they defect from No Peak. Her biggest intellectual rival in the series, Shae, constantly matches her plans, and Ayt all the way until the end responds in kind. She also is able to use the machinations of the Clanless Future Movement, a group hell bent on destroying the Green Bone clans, to her advantage, even as she is fatally wounded by them. After having her life saved by Shae, she is able to use the destruction of the CFM to give herself time to prepare for her big plan without being attacked by No Peak, as No Peak and Mountain are working together to destroy them as a common foe.Verdict?
Yeah, I think she’s definitely worthy. I’m more than willing to answer any questions. I will say that Shae does do a lot of actions that undermine her plans, and I don't know if that would count against her at all, I just thought I'd bring it up just in case. Also sorry for the length, I don't know how to shut up and I had to write down all the potential evidence as I was reading so I just sort of wrote everything. <DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>
So, I know the series VERY well...and yeah, I think Ayt Mada keeps. I was actually planning on a couple from there myself.
It's tough, but Ayt Mada's final scene I think takes her from CM to MB
I never pegged her as a Complete Monster. She doesn't fit. She's too sympathetic a character, and the way that Lee writes her characters, she specifically wrote the conflict so that Mada could be the protagonist and it would fit just as well (which is why I could also write an EP for Shae). I think she showed she had the makings of a Magnificent Bastard from her first appearance and everything after just cemented that
<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>
Yeah, Shae is the one I was planning on doing, her and Hilo.
This post was thumped by the Stick of Post Thumping
I'm less sure about Hilo. He becomes more intelligent, more of a strategist, as the series goes on, but I don't think he is as good as Shae or Mada, not by a long shot, even in the end. But the act of him standing in front of a door as a brilliant tactical move is fantastic, though. That is a very MB thing to do. So maybe.
<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>
Mind if I check on Shae and hilo there? Hilo's end is strong enough that I think he makes it.
I'll note Mada's final moments in story, even if she's defeated, reveals she truly cared for her country and all actions, no matter how ruthless or evil were to safeguard it.
I'm all for seeing Shae and Hilo E Ps. I spent all my time focusing on Mada that I didn't do anything for either of them, and due to me being unable to remember a lot of the details as well as the lack of good resources for plot synopses, I'd have to reread the series to do full E Ps on them.
<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>
I'll glance through them soon. TBH, Wen may be worth a post for her actions in book 2 as well.
I was considering that maybe Wen could count too, but her I'm a lot less sure about. She definitely has aspects of one, but I don't know if she quite goes all the way.
<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>
Woagh
Ye to Karin and Mada.
Anyone have something to say about Clown-Face's question regarding a candidate? I haven't seen the work myself.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Mar 10th 2022 at 9:21:38 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Goku Black
mada and Karim.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Karim, Mada
Goku Black
Alright I just took my Pfizer booster and feel a bit off. So I'm taking a bit of a leave from here for a day or two.
Bye for now guys.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yea to Karim and Mada.
Doesn't Roscuro spend significant time both in film and in book as nothing but Botticelli's pawn? The only times he ever acts like remotely amoral, he's being led astray by Botticelli. Nothing "magnificent" he does is bastardly and nothing bastardly he does is magnificent.
Yeah, I'm cool with striking him.
Edited by Scraggle on Mar 11th 2022 at 4:36:13 AM
Yes to Ayt Mada, cut the rat!
Classy, Refined, Unstable
What's this? What's this? Another Skyrim proposal? Well lets start my next Skyrim batch because I may have 4 more proposals coming from this. (Although I'm admittedly unsure on 2)
What is the work?
Skyrim...yeah yeah I've said what it is enough now. During Skyrim's base game you can join four other factions with their own unique storylines. One of these is the Thieves' Guild, which is a guild of thieves. In the guild are a bunch of characters, including the first character I'm proposing.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
Brynjolf is one of the higher ups of the Thieves' Guild as is the man who will introduce to the questline. When going to Riften's market for the first time Brynjolf will approach you, noticing how much money you're carrying. He offers you a chance to make more money by joining the guild but puts you through a test. To pickpocket someone's ring and frame another person with it. If you don't succeed, he'll still see potential with you and will offer you a place in the guild when you meet him at their hideout.
When you reach Brynjolf in the Ragged Flagon, he asks you to collect some debts for the guild but tells you to avoid killing them because bribing guards and removing bodies is pricy. When you do that, he takes you to the Guild's hideout and initiates you within the guild with the Guildmaster, Mercer Frey who tasks you with breaking into an estate called Goldenglow. Brynjolf will give you much advice as possible to help. For the next major quests in the Guild's storyline, you are able to ask for more info off Brynjolf.
Eventually you find out that a dark elf named Karliah is behind the Guild's problems so the player and Mercer go to a tomb to take her out when its revealed that Mercer originally betrayed the previous Guildmaster and framed Karliah for his death. After helping Karliah with trying to prove her innocence, you and her return to the guild where Brynjolf allows her to explain herself, although threatening to kill her if she tries to make a move. With her innocence proved, Brynjolf asks you to break into Mercer's house to find out his ultimate scheme, stealing two rugby ball sized gems called "The Eyes Of The Falmer" to run off with them and become rich.
After that, The Dragonborn and Brynjolf go with Karliah to Nightingale Hall and become the new initiates for the Daedric Prince, Nocturnal. After that, the three head to the dwarven ruin where the eyes are and can either sneak or slaughter through the hordes of Falmer inside to stop Mercer. With Mercer dead and the Guild back to its original state, Brynjolf will allow the Dragonborn to become Guildmaster, seeing them as the one worthy to take the mantle. After that, he just speaks the same loop of dialogue because... Bethesda.
Is he magnificent?
Being one of the higher ups of the Guild, he explains how they operated with efficiency on dealing with and has committed various acts of thievery himself (albeit he just tells you.) The main problem with him is that he's against Karliah who tried to break the guild by weakening their bond with Maven Black-Briar to spite Mercer. Throughout the quest though, he does realise what was going on (although not knowing it was Karliah specifically.) The thing that tips me over the others is that he also joins you to storm the dwarven ruins and becomes a nightingale since it showcases that he's not just all words.
Is he a bastard?
Well the first thing he asks you to is to frame an innocent man and has admitted to framing priests so he's not a good guy in the slightest. He's smart enough to be pragmatic by having you not kill targets because it'd be more hassle to bribe the guards. He's also smart enough to realise that you shouldn't kill the targets in missions because they can still prove useful such as Gulum Ei since the guild can use him as a fence in the shipping warehouse in Solitude. He's also shown to have a soft spot with children as in the Hearthfire DLC your child can explain that Brynjolf is very friendly with them.
Conclusion?
Unsure, discussion's welcome of course though.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Will read the EPs later, but G I'm concerned about something. I just watched the scene where Rafid tries to kill Karim on Netflix. He's clearly not trying to kill Karim, he's trying to kill Mason. I don't know how that effects his Complete Monster designation, but that might be a big deal. Big difference between trying to kill your brother and your captor.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Kent, Ibuki, Isshin, Maenad, Crummock, Karim, Madam and Brynjolf
Cut Roscuro
Abstain on Cat, and retracting any votes on the Aesop guys because there's too many for me to reassess without getting overwhelmed
Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Mar 11th 2022 at 6:16:02 AM
Lemme get Sekiro in. Now, Lady Butterfly should go last, but Owl and Isshin both appear in the opening cutscene and have roughly the same plot importance? Really either would work.