During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Abstain there
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Margery, personally my standard with deliberate values dissonance and such is just how its played, if she isnt played as a Creepy predator then I think I am fine with it, and happy Yes to Goff.
I...can see Cash. Bastard's hit by the fact he was on death row to begin with, but we nevr learn what he did and it doesn't seem he was a rapist serial killer.
Yes to Cash.
@Lore: He's still on the list! Forge-Mother Alga from Online, likewise, is still up there. I wanna bump them off soon since I've already gotten the ball rolling with Madanach. Miraak I still sadly think I'd lean no to, because while he faces his death with total dignity, Hermaeus Mora makes such a pawn out of him in the end. The fact his entire scheme revolves around breaking out of the web Mora's spun him into in the first place further hurts him to me since he's totally unsuccessful.
On the Thieves' Guild—Brynjolf, I guess, could make it, but I see him as kinda flavorless compared to Karliah. Mercer's an automatic no for the exact reasons Lore mentioned: the dude is a wretched Smug Snake who'd make CM if he was anywhere near heinous enough.
One question I've actually been debating...would anyone be up for a post on Ulfric Stormcloak? My concerns about Fantastic Racism are somewhat mitigated by the fact he's a clear Noble Bigot (he's Nord-centric, the player character can be whatever race they want and Ulfric will claim them a brother should they prove their worth) and even with all the Alternate Character Interpretation I do think his deeds genuinely show him to be a cunning, masterful operator. What do we say?
Edited by Scraggle on Mar 6th 2022 at 10:50:21 AM
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
How many entries does Franchise.Super Sentai have?
Edit: NVM, we have 7. Abstaining Cash (no pun intended)
Edited by Siegfried1337 on Mar 6th 2022 at 10:00:17 AM
MB Pending | MB Drafts | MB Dates
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Cash (Tentative)
It's been a while since I've played Skyrim, but didn't Ulfric have a man's child beheaded in front of him?
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I don't remember.
Yes to Cash.
I'd lean no to Ulfric myself since his racism is still one of the central aspects of his characterization. Both the Dark Elves and Argonians are treated like shit in his city. Literally the first thing you see in Windhelm is a couple of drunken Nords about to assault an innocent elf and you have to step in. Even if Ulfric doesn't explicitly order it, he's more than fine with it happening and does nothing to curb it.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
I think you're referring to someone from Cihdna Mine, I don't recall it being Ulfric but Markarth's Jarl or Thonar
Sure to Cash
Yeah, that's the quest I was thinking of. A surprisingly hard-hitting line, that. But you're right, it was actually the Jarl and the Silver-Bloods.
Gonna have to echo Lore, come to think of it. A character being prejudiced and/or racist is one thing (hell, Kain apparently takes issue with Romani people), but when you're making people suffer because you're a bigot, that's a dealbreaker. Also, Ulfric is unknowingly a pawn to the Thalmor, which he admits in Sovngarde.
Edited by Stellarvore on Mar 7th 2022 at 2:22:26 PM
Rufus, Twister, Goff and Cash
Switching to ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Margaery
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
to Ulfric after much consideration.
There's no EP for Ulfric you don't have to downvote him.
Cash.
Yes to Cash.
Goku Black
Cash.
I have a candidate from a... unique type of medium - basically a children's moral story
The Work and the Candidate
The work doesn't really have an official title AFAIK, but it is popular and well known enough where I live. Here is a link to the story (I googled "Two cats and a monkey"). The candidate is the monkey, the moral is "When you quarrel and fight, someone else gains" and the summary is as follows:
Two cats come across a cake. They start arguing over who gets it since one of them saw it first, but the other one picked it up.
A monkey observes the two cats fighting and interjects, offering to act as a judge. He opts to break the cake in half so that each cat gets equal portions, but he does it such that one piece is bigger than the other. He decides to make it even by eating some of the larger piece, but now the larger piece is too small and they aren't equal size, so he eats a part of the "smaller piece" (which is now larger)
This repeats till the monkey has eaten both pieces of the cake, leaving the two cats with nothing.
Magnificence and Bastardry
He takes advantage of the discord between the two cats to have their cake and eat it too, while passing himself off as a neutral and fair third party
I feel that the main mitigating issue isn't the character himself, but rather the type of medium he comes from. In it's defense, while the plot may be overly simple and it may not follow a typical narrative structure, it has a point (don't quarrel else someone unsavory will take advantage of you) and the actions have consequences (the cats lose the cake to the monkey because they fought over it).
Edited by magnumtropus on Mar 7th 2022 at 1:42:53 PM
If we upvoted the fox, I don't see why we can't upvote this guy, especially cause as you say, it's a children's story. Monkey.
Goku Black
Monkey
Is this the first time we've upvoted someone from a work that might not have an official name.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I would use Two Cats and a Monkey since that seems to be the most indicative line of a title but yes there.
Also does someone wanna help me with purging links to YouTube for songs and the fanfic stuff?
Sure to Cash and Monkey.
for Rufus, Dr. Twister, Goff, Cash, and the monkey.
to Cash and the monkey
Caesar
Yes to Goff, Cash and the monkey!
Edited by Ravok on Mar 7th 2022 at 7:30:46 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
I have a couple potential candidates. Not too certain about either of them. I'll start with this one.
What's the work?
Manhunt is a notoriously controversial (and INFURIATINGLY difficult) video game from Rockstar. In it, you play as James Earl Cash, an escapee from Carcer City Prison's death row, whose lethal injections were swapped for sedatives, only for him to be dragged into a snuff film ring by disgraced Hollywood director Lionel Starkweather, forced to fight for his life against murderous gangs for each of the director's scenes in his upcoming film. The candidate today? None other than Cash himself.
Who is James Earl Cash? What has he done?
James Earl Cash, who for the sake of brevity, I will refer to only by his surname from here on out, is the protagonist of the game. He's a cold, indifferent, and efficient killer who Starkweather was wise to choose for his new star. Dropped off in a dark room, he's given instructions by Starkweather to kill his way through the gangs (or "Hunters") in increasingly gruesome ways, dispatching them through both brute strength and stealth. These Hunters include gangbangers known as the Hoods, white supremacist lowlives called the Skinz, slightly less bigoted survivalists and war veterans called the Wardogs, pedophile serial killers and junkie Satanists collectively called the Innocentz, and the batshit criminally insane Smileys. Between each of the first four gangs, Cash is violently "escorted" to the next scene by Starkweather's guards, the Cereberus. But enough about that, I'll get to the first most plot-relevant point.
When he's killing the Wardogs, Starkweather reveals they have Cash's family members captive, and he has to free at least one before proceeding to the next scene. Regardless of whether or not they're all freed, Cash will wish them well in his own antisocial way ("Trust no one, now go!" "Move, you idiot!", etc). After taking on the Wardogs, Cash is forced to shoot his way through the Innocentz and to retrieve and watch a videotape on Starkweather's orders. On the tape, he sees the Innocentz butchering his surviving family members, and in what's probably the only display of him truly caring about anyone other than himself, he gazes on without expression and knocks the TV over as Starkweather gloats to him that he's the only family he needs.
Next up, Cash has to escort a homeless man through a graveyard while protecting him from the Innocentz, and occasionally threatens his life whenever he hides in the shadows. Skipping ahead, after dealing with the remaining Innocentz, Cash is brought to Darkwoods Penitentiary where he faces off against what's somehow simultaneously the (second) most disturbing but also the most hilarious group of Hunters, the Smileys. As he gets close to leaving the prison, he's ambushed by a small group of Smileys with seemingly no escape, whereupon Starkweather reveals that this is to be Cash's last scene, where he's to be killed off by the Smileys. But he manages to kill them all, much to Starkweather's chagrin, then chase after the White Rabbit to get the key out of there. At the guard tower, Cash snipes several incoming Cerberus mercenaries armed to the teeth and flees, only to be ambushed by Ramirez, the leader of the Wardogs.
Cash wakes up near a derelict apartment, which is filled with Wardogs. Tangent: this is what has to be the single most frustrating level of the game and it caused me to give up on my second playthrough. But anyway, Cash, after dying hundreds of times, armed with not much more than a machete, piano wire, a plastic bag, and a shotgun, kills the numerous Wardogs before reaching Ramirez, who, being the TOTAL FUCKING COWARD THAT HE IS, RUNS AWAY AND STARTS TO CALL FOR BACKUP — sorry about that, this level really pisses me off. Anyway, he either reaches Ramirez while he's still in the apartment complex and kills him and gets the hell out of there, waits until he's out of the apartment (in fairness, it's pretty easy to miss him) and snipes him from a window, or makes his way all the way back to the beginning of the level after killing numerous MORE Wardogs and blows his head off when he has his back turned.
With the last of the Wardogs taken out of the picture, Cash is stopped on the street by a journalist who orders him to get in her car and escort her to her apartment while avoiding the corrupt cops whose police chief is in Starkweather's pocket, so that she can get the information she left in said apartment to help expose Starkweather's operation. After escorting her to safety, Cash goes off to deal with Starkweather himself, telling her, "You're my backup if I don't make it. Have a nice life." He kills numerous cops along the way, finally ending up in a trainyard where he's once again ambushed by the Cerberus, who take him to Starkweather's mansion, leaving him in a garage.
Cash hides in the shadows while single-handedly dispatching the heavily armed mercenaries, sometimes with little more than shards of glass and other disposable makeshift weapons. He then infiltrates the mansion, kills more mercs with a sickle and an assault rifle, while at the same time, the deranged massive Leatherface expy, Piggsy, breaks free from Starkweather's attic and starts hacking up the guards with a chainsaw before turning his attention to Cash, who he chases to the top of the stairs on this level twice, running away when he sees the grate beneath his feet is about collapse beneath his weight, and he's not so lucky the second time, when Cash takes the chainsaw from him and chops off his hands as he holds on for his dear life. At last, Cash massacres the remaining mercs, barging into Starkweather's office with chainsaw in hand while Starkweather alternates between cowering and running, shooting at Cash and taunting him, before Cash finally catches up to him and he begs for his life. Cash, of course, has none of it, and brutally executes him and leaves. And if the second game is anything to go by, he goes full Karma Houdini, starts a new family and opens a business with his sons many years later.
Is he magnificent? A bastard? Too much?
Alright, first thing's first, Cash is not much of a sociable person. In fact, you can count the number of times he speaks per level/cutscene on one hand. And while he doesn't show much in the way of book smarts (not that he has any immediate reason to, though he does operate a crane to crush a bunch of Skinz), he displays plenty of street smarts and kills his enemies with both stealth and brute strength. There are, undoubtedly, times where you'll be forced to flee if an enemy gets the upper hand or if you prefer to take then down with stealth (because let's face it, melee combat SUCKS in this game), but that's more on the player than him and even then, is more a case of pragmatism on Cash's part.
Cash is... generally not nice. At all. He slowly beheads, stabs, bludgeons, and eviscerates Hunters without blinking or showing the slightest bit of remorse, even when they beg for their lives and tell him they have families. It's safe to say that whatever he was sentenced to death for, he did it. Though the level of gruesomeness of the executions, again, really depends on the player, and even those are kept fairly quick, in sharp contrast to the sequel's protagonist, who practically tortures his enemies while the deuteragonist (his split personality) revels in the carnage. On a social level, Cash isn't much better. Even calls his family "idiots" to their faces as they flee and threatens the only companions he has, though it's mostly just to make sure they don't attract any unwanted attention when he has to hide.
But he's willing to spare the reporter, despite her seeing his face and being, well, a reporter (she doesn't rat him out in the end), though that's more because he half-expects not to survive the night so he ensures Starkweather's going down one way or the other. And he does care about his family, clearly being deeply upset that Starkweather had them killed. That might have actually been why he went after him after escaping the Smileys instead of getting out of dodge.
What's the competition?
Starkweather may pull I Lied frequently, but it really doesn't do him any good in the long run and apart from his wealth, having law enforcement in his pocket, and being a former Hollywood director, he's really not much more than a sadistic lowlife who happens to have money and a mansion and it's strongly implied he gets off to Cash's kills. To say nothing of him being senselessly cruel (like forcing Cash to watch his family getting butchered) or being prone to Villainous Breakdowns when things don't go his way. I don't really count anyone in the second game because it only has superficial connections to the first, like gameplay and the disembodied-voice-giving-instructions, plus the easter egg showing Cash got off scot-free and started a business.
Verdict?
Up to you.
Edited by Stellarvore on Mar 7th 2022 at 10:03:07 AM