During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Lizzid people!
Oh, okay, that makes more sense.
For Theater, I'm kind of looking for quotes. Here's something from Little Shop of Horrors. Don't know if this works.
I'm fine with both and honestly, as Mononoke is better known that Dances With The Dragons I'd be down to swap out the quote and just put Moldeen's on the quotes page.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
To Phantom: Uh, YHVH was dead by SJ. The mere existence of the Demiurge shows that he was being fragmented after the Mothers beat him.
Also, If you played DDS. Then you can do the Jenna EP? Or you don't care waiting some months more? (And also, there no ambiguity, most SMT games don't have the Shin Megami Tensei brand in Japan proper, but they share so many themes and more importantly, demon designs and references that is obvious they all belong to the same multiverse)
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 21st 2019 at 3:41:10 PM
Watch me destroying my country
Speaking of Shin Megami Tensei there's a crossover at Archive Of Our Own between the Persona series (a sub series of SMT) and South Park called Persona South if anyone here is interested.
Edited by G-Editor on Jan 20th 2019 at 11:58:41 PM
Foreign Troper
I just re-read the Daredevil story Guardian Devil and.....are we really sure that Mysterio is a MB in that one?
I mean at the end of the story, Matt basically calls him out
◊ on what a pathetic loser he really is, as he failed to break him and couldn't even think of any grand plan of his own, he had to steal ideas from several A-List villains.
Edited by Forenperser on Jan 21st 2019 at 11:11:37 AM
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Prefer to keep the Moldeen quote in the anime page because why not. 
Then again, I understand why you want to swap it. Go ahead mayne! Speaking of which, possibly going to make some descriptions
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
We'll still have the Moldeen quote, it's just going on the quotes page instead.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Its cool ;)
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Cut this from the Kingdom Hearts YMMV.
- Magnificent Bastard: Master Xehanort and any incarnation of his... ANY of them. While there are other magnificent bastards in the Kingdom Hearts series, Master Xehanort is the biggest and greatest of them all. A rare instance where it also overlaps with Complete Monster.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
@Awesome Kid Vet it by using (% %) I'm sure Polar Phantom or Scraggle will make an argument someday in the future... Speaking of which, can't wait for his Sephiroth EP
Gah I really don't like this coding
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jan 21st 2019 at 11:17:33 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Why use the % tags? It hasn't been approved and Awesome already said he's cutting it. We'll get to it when we get to it.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
ah alright... whoops. But yeah, cut for now.
New EP now...
What's the work?
Halo is a flagship game for the Xbox, centering on a war between the earth and affiliates and the alien religious empire, the Covenant, who have come to claim earth...those there to save the world? The Spartans....modified super soldiers who are there to kick ass, take names and kill alien scum. Though things get more...complex as warring factions inside the Covenant make themselves known, and the hero? The Master Chief, the top Spartan...but the MB here is not a Spartan. Not a Covenant member...there's another faction, and it's led by "the architect to all your sins." Enter....Gravemind.
Who is Gravemind?
Inferi sententia, the Gravemind, the lord of the Flood, a mass of biological fury that seeks to assimilate all life, and is the puppeteer of the Flood. Gravemind has taken entire galaxies in the past and has designs on the Milky Way. Gravemind came into being from the merging of biomass to create the Flood and battled with the Forerunners,the predecessor species and...brilliantly outmaneuvered the Forerunners again and again and again. Brlliant and charismatic, Gravemind even convinced Forerunner AI to abandon their masters and the Flood was simply the next step in evolution, before using a logic virus to subvert all the other AI. The Gravemind nearly took the galaxy, but was defeated by the Forerunners at last when the Halo Rings were activated. Slowly rebuilding itself...Gravemind decided to use the Covenant war to its advantage, slowly studying them and attacking strategically to set things up as it wished.
finally making the Master Chief and friends aware of it, the Gravemind forces the Chief into a situation where he has to basically become the Gravemind's errand boy: to stop the activation of the Halo Rings....while also gaining access to a major human city by having a ship infiltrated and crashed to allow the Flood to subvert and assimilate all life there.
when The Gravemind learned that the top leader of the Covenant, the Prophet of Truth, planned an insane activation of the Halo Rings, Gravemind delayed its plans and manipulated the Chief and the Flood warrior, the Arbiter to stop it for him, before attempting to assimilate them as well. Ultimately, despite completely defeating truth and the Covenant, it comes to a battle between the Chief and Gravemind and Gravemind is ultimately destroyed when the Chief uses the Rings against it.
Is he charismatic? A good operator? A planner?
That chessmaster trope is there for a reason. Gravemind is brilliant. Through the wars it's in, it plans beautifully for most possibilities, outwitting and crushing all in its path. And for a gigantic, sentient, monstrous form of bio-mass, it's...shockingly eloquent and charismatic, with some astoundingly good and cutting dialogue, speaking mournfully of its predicament, using its enemies to carry out what it needs and playing situations to its advantages. And with such great lines as "Resignation is my virtue; like water I ebb and flow. Defeat is simply the addition of time to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed."...Gravemind knows it'll be back one day. But yeah, the Gravemind actually used its charisma to crush and subvert the loyalty of an AI designed to be loyal. It plans and schemes beautifully and constantly ends up ahead.
Is it a bastard? Too much?
Well, Gravey is...not nice. It runs what's basically The Thing on a galactic scale, viewing individual life as completely irrelevant. It subsumes and converts other sentient life into the Flood, assimilating them endlessly....it'll betray and destroy as it sees fit.
Despite this? Gravemind doesn't really think it's doing anything wrong. It truly seems to feel when the Flood is supreme, there'll be nothing but peace in the long run. It also seems to harbor genuine bitterness and truly doesn't think it deserves the sentence imposed upon it for acting out its purpose. Gravemind is a threat, yes, but it's acting out as it knows how to do and what it believes it's for the best in the long run.
Conclusion?
for a gigantic Eldritch Abomination like Gravemind? I'm saying a clear yes. Surprising, but the damn thing is so compelling
Yep there.
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Gravemind
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
So Gravemind is too morally impaired to be a Complete Monster?
to Gravemind
Edited by G-Editor on Jan 21st 2019 at 11:26:59 PM
Been waiting for that one. Yes there.
Gravemind
Lizzid people!
A "yes" to Gravemind.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I found this on the Titans YMMV Page:
- Magnificent Bastard: Angela Azarath was able to play her daughter Rachel and the rest of the main characters into releasing Trigon while putting a facade of a Broken Bird.
Gravemind.
I probably won't do Jenna Angel. It's been a while since I played DDS and I have enough going on for me.
And I think we're gonna keep Mysterio. Daredevil calling him out may not be enough to push him out of our affections, but then again, my knowledge of the comic is weak.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Oh, nice, then I get another game to play.
Well, those are my SMT write ups
- Devil Survivor 2: Yamato Hotsuin is the young and determined leader of JPs. Trained since his childhood, Yamato develops a merit-based Social Darwinist worldview which he applies to his own life. When Polaris's trial begins and Japan is invaded for the Septentrione, Yamato leads JPs and ensures its survival, recruiting useful civilians while ignoring most of them. Willing to sacrifice and risk his allies if needed, Yamato eventually reveals his goal: to survive Polaris's trial and ask her to rebuild the world into his ideal meritocracy, where class, race and gender would be ignored in favor of merit. Yamato also tries to convince The Protagonist to follow him while allowing him to choose otherwise. Sacrificing himself to save the protagonists—including his ideological rival Ronaldo—after acknowledging their merit in Ronaldo's route and committing suicide after losing in Anguished One's, Yamato always fights until the very end except on Daichi's route, where his friendship with the protagonists makes him accept his defeat. If the protagonist joins him, Yamato successfully leads his team to victory, creating a world where merit rules, the so-called useless ones are discriminated against and Yamato and his retinue rule over all.
—-
- Shin Megami Tensei: Lucifer, King of the Abyss, under the alias of Louis Cyphre, calls himself a part of YHVH that was discarded. He was behind Lilith's actions throughout the game in an attempt to convince the reincarnation of Adam to follow the violent Darwinist path of Chaos, helping and congratulating him if he does and trying to trick him to his death if he doesn't, completely avoiding direct confrontation in all the routes. Several years later, while watching Aleph in his disguise, Lucifer prepares for the rebirth of his hated enemy Satan in an attempt to save his realm from its annihilation at the orders of YHVH. Failing to prevent Satan's rebirth, Lucifer intends to use the dragon Kuzuryu, given to him by YHVH Himself, to destroy the highly populated city Tokyo Millenium and its new Eden. He partially does so in the Chaos route before fighting against Satan and YHVH Himself, freeing humanity and demonhood from His rule after destroying the biggest human population centers of the post-apocalyptic world. More affable than in the past, Lucifer seeks to protect his people as its affable king while still carrying out his ideology of freedom over all.
- Shin Megami Tensei II: Zayin was created artificially as part of the Project Messiah in order to be the Messiah's bodyguard, but his destiny was to be much more. Introduced as a loyal Temple Knight working for the Center, capital of the totalitarian and hypocritical Tokyo Millennium, Zayin eventually discovered their murderous corruption thanks to his time with Aleph and decided to rebel against it, broadcasting the truth and gaining a loyal following in the religious district of Holytown. Forced by The Elders—actually corrupt archangels—into going to the Center after they threatened Holytown, Zayin is captured and then freed after Aleph defeats them. Building a new Eden—filled with people whose "knowledge" was erased—alongside the archangel Gabriel, Zayin is revealed to be actually a part of Satan, God's instrument to judge all creatures. Embracing his role, Satan prepares to destroy both the human and demon worlds, leaving only the peaceful people of Eden to build the Millennium Kingdom, managing to doing it in the Law route before ending his judgement by judging his creator, God Himself. Having finished his holy duty, Satan leaves the future to Aleph and Hiroko before returning to the soil from where he was created.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 22nd 2019 at 3:49:13 PM
Watch me destroying my country
They look good, I see you added them to the page template, which I'll probably make into a page and now and ask for it to be locked on Sunday.
Edit: Screw it, I'll just do it now.
Edited by 43110 on Jan 22nd 2019 at 7:29:21 AM
Ooh, or Lady Eboshi's (having just rewatched that):
"Now watch closely, everyone. I'm going to show you how to kill a god. A god of life and death. The trick is not to fear him."
There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.