During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I mean, he technically does kill him pretty painlessly.
That was painlessly from any perspective. Here it seems like he's savoring psychological despair. As usual I will have no problems if he goes up.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Showtime!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to baal and Cora
Part of the curve I'm grading on...Diablo and Mephsto would've done far worse. Diablo's the Lord of Terror and absolutely delights in breaking his victim's minds to really, really nasty levels
Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 18th 2021 at 6:55:32 AM
Yes to Cora. Baal... hmm, that's tough, I'm not gonna dispute it too much but even with the curve grading he's still marching demons to kill at absurd quantities. I'll think on it, he's smart, he's evil but possibly to the degree I'm looking at him more like an asshole who's good at what he does, even if his brothers are worse.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Admittedly, part of the reason that seems the lesser evil is Mephisto's favored tactic is turn people against one another until they collapse in bloody frenzies at destroying everything they loved and Diablo is the sort who'll make sure everyone and everything has their minds broken by their worst nightmares.
Even the lesser Evils really, really love torture and prolonging their victims' pain. One cutscene has Baal just blow a guy up while snarkily remarking his terms are "unacceptable" before directing his armies forward, which is unique in how straightforward he and his demons are. When your brothers will go out of their way to make you and everything you love hurt and suffer, "destroy things with demons" just seems curiously quaint.
Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 18th 2021 at 7:08:25 AM
Goku Black
Baal.
Hmmm, I did upvote evil Morty, where I feel in a series with a standard heinous standard he would be too bad, but on a curve, he's fine. One difference is he is objectively lower on the totem pole then Rick (who's outright committed an omnicide, evil Morty is just killing a large city), and even the little sadistic touches to his plan you could argue were necessary. The goal was somewhat sympathetic/understandable (get out under Ricks thumb). This guy seems to be on a similar level to his brothers and the goal is not sympathetic in the slightest, however he's nowhere near as sadistic as his brothers, yet he's still got that slight psychologically sadistic edge... I'm sorry to say this, but I'm still abstaining.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Hey all. Just came from a failed CM proposal for Herbert West. However, I’m now wondering if a different character from the same story could keep. Anyone interested?
He never sleeps. He says he will never die.
Let me go with another few...these might be less controversial.
What's the work?
Vampire the Masquerade: Winter's Teeth is a 10 issue comic series by Tim Seeley set in the 5th Edition of Vampire the Masquerade, namely the Minnesotan Twin Cities area, controlled by the Camarilla....tensions are aflame with the Anarchs and Samantha Merrain holds court over the region. Our, um..."heroine" is Cecily Bain, a tough, cold Brujah enforcer for Samantha's court who makes a formal request to Sire someone...intending to turn her aging, dementia-ridden beloved sister Karen into a vampire (The only person Cecily loves). Then...Samantha is murdered, but before that? Ceily finds a young, clanless vampire, newly turned and terrified, named Alejandra "Ali" Deluna, whom she passes off as her own childe and takes under her wing...
Political situations are rough and there are a lot of threats, external and internal. One of them? The Tremere Primogen of the city: Calder Wendt.
Who is Calder?
Calder Wendt is the head of the Twin Cities' Tremere, a dashing and dapper socialite who loves to show off his blood sorcery...he and Cecily are on friendly enough terms with the two being something of decent rivals in Samantha Merrain's Court...Calder, however, has clear designs on the throne and actively fosters plots to turn the courts against one another. Calder spreads one that there's a plot to split the Twin Cities into two, which...is technically true as he's responsible. Using his powers, Calder murders Samantha and throws the court into chaos.
Finding a convenient scapegoat, Calder then finds "evidence" to frame Cecily herself, along with Ali and calls a Blood H Unt on her where every kindred in the cities are out for her head. Cecily, being Cecily, manages to survive and takes the fight to Calder...whereas she exposes another vampire high up, her own friend, Erin as plotting against Calder...Calder ends the Blood Hunt and usurps Erin, leaving her in a cage and proceeds to buddy up to Ali like nothing ever happened.
Another group of vampires are performing a "cull" on the humans nearby...meaning anyone who might know of vampires, hunters, etc...the ones in charge being rather vicious sadists who plan to torture them to death. One of them? Is the nurse of Cecily's human sister Karen, to Ali's horror. Calder, as a favor to Ali, invokes his legal right to spare one human to save the nurse, Irma. Telling Ali to "pack 'er up and let's go." ...the vamps reveal they had a child there as well, the son of a suspected hunter...Ali won't let them torture a kid, so Calder informs her:
"Others may get little victories here and there....but I never lose completely" and invokes another right: to kill one human of his choice, so Ali can kills Irma painlessly by drinking hr blood (which is actually very pleasurable so she dies happy)...Calder then tells Ali to kill the boy when they're done and bring him proof...Ali fakes the death by tearing off his ear. Turns out? The kid is a hunter and brings them down on the vamps.
Visiting is the Tremere Justicar, Ian Carnifax (one of the few people who actually scares Calder) And hunters attack. Calder's blood sorcery holds everything in check, but he's eventually badly wounded, and saved by Cecily, who lets him bite her to recover...and the one behind it all? Ali, who's now running her own game....Calder and Ceily conspire to bring her down, while Calder transmits a secret conversation to Carnifax and causes Ali's downfall...however, Cecily is chosen as the new Prince, whereas Calder is made Sheriff, albeit still running his own games...though Carnifax does inform him? He'll be watching.
Mitigating issues?
Is Calder perfect? No. Is Calder damn good at what he does? Hell yes. Calder is a brilliant, charismatic, charming and pleasant guy who'll plot the overthrow of a city without ever losing a smile. He assassinates Samantha after instituting numerous plots to throw everyone off and frames Cecily. The only issue is information Cecily has that Calder couldn't possess and he rolls with it after...and by the end, he may not get what he wants, but it's a rare game of multiple MB's working against one another with nobody really going down in flames utterly.
Notably, Calder taking advantage of Ali's plot to give the info to Carnifax, he has a great moment when he reveals how dangerous he truly is and why everyone dislikes the Tremere: they're afraid of them.
Is Calder a bastard? Hell yes he is. Calder murders his Prince, frames Cecily, he's fully open to killing his rival Erin Runningbear, he has Ali kill an innocent woman to save a kid he's planning to kill anyways, but...interestingly? Calder by the end, wen he thinks he might die? He professes he did truly love Samantha and killed her as a form of mercy because he knew disaster was coming to the Twin Cities and Samantha would never have been able to handle it. He also genuinely likes Cecily and Ali, playfully joking he's "hurt" when Ali badmouths him as "I thought we were friends!" And while he does order that one kid killed, it's not out of malice. Kid's a witness, possibly a hunter and a Masquerade violation...and Calder's right, the kid is a hunter, but he ensures at least that poor Irma dies painlessly.
Conclusion?
Yes to Calder. Easily so, honestly...rare case where we have three MB's bouncing off one another.
Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 18th 2021 at 8:02:56 AM
Yes to Calder.
Goku Black
Calder
Btw I've been playing Pokémon Masters which is meant as a crossover for the various Pokemon characters. Giovanni has some pretty great moves their but due to it sorta being canon I'm not sure where you guys would like a separate entry or just an eventual expansion. (Cyrus and Colress haven't done much yet as their expected to get more in the Sinnoh and Unova villain arcs).
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Calder seems like an easy yes, but I'm confused by something. When he was manipulating Ali, did she just assume he wanted irma dead and killed her, and then he was like "psych no" kill the kid. Cause otherwise it seems like he ordered her to kill two humans twice, wouldn't she have the right to spare the kid if she did kill Irma? Am I misunderstanding something here?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
He knew full well Ali wasn't going to leave the boy behind, and knew Ali wasn't going to abandon Irma to be tortured...plus, he also didn't like the head of the torturers trying to outplay him, so he pulled another one-up.
He didn't exactly have moral concerns himself about it
My question is how could he have ordered two deaths if he was only entitled to one? Even if he knew she wouldn't carry out the second one.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
He could spare one. He invokes that right, and to kill one, which he invokes on Irma. His telling Ali to kill the boy is done outside of that when they're alone, unofficially, after they leave
Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 18th 2021 at 8:28:18 AM
Goku Black
So Exact Words. By not saying anything he gives the go ahead.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ahh, yes. Since it was part of a slaughter ceremony. Thank you, Calder.
Okay, just to clarify:
The vampire running the show, Elena, has multiple humans and implies Calder is welcome to kill one if he desires. As the Primogen, Calder has the legal right to pardon a human from the cull. He intends to use that for Irma (to keep Ali in his debt if nothing else) ...until Elena springs the kid of them. Calder instead keeps the legal right to pardon for the kid...and then seizes on "hey, you indicated I could kill one, don't mind if I do. Ali, go right ahead and kill Irma if you don't want her tortured) before they leave with the kid...whereupon he promptly orders Ali to kill him when they're alone.
Looking at it all and seeing it clarified? Sure to Calder.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Calder's an easy yea.
And my second now: Cecily Bain.
Who is Cecily Bain?
A Brujah, one of the most aggressive and independent of the Clans. Cecily lives in the Twin Cities, in a ratty little apartment over a porn shop. She likes the punk scene, partying, she had a surprisingly loving family. Cecily is likewise the enforcer of Prince Merrain...nominally, she's the Sheriff, but Cecily rejects the title, being a former Anarch...her literal introduction is confronting the human girlfriend of a vampire named Cordell, who Cordell confessed his nature to. Cecily, to deal with the issue, drains her dry and coldly informs Cordell she probably wouldn't have betrayed him...
Cecily's one loved one is her dementia-ridden sister Karen...Ceily pretends to be her own niece and is seeking to ask permission to Sire, intending to turn Karen...then she comes across a scared, frightened teenage girl vampire, a "Caitiff" (Clanless)...Ali Deluna. Cecily's conscience hits her and she takes Ali in...With a very hungry Ali, Cecily helps her target a drug dealer, hits the guy with her car when he flees Ali and guides Ali how to feed...Ali loses control and drains him dry, whereupon Cecily takes her to see the reason she picked the guy: despite being a callous drug dealer who sells bad product, he was working to help his impoverished mother and little sister whom he doted on. Ali is aggrieved and furious but Cecily gives her a cold lesson: No matter how bad you think someone is? They're just trying to survive and trying to categorize as good or bad is folly for vampires.
Samantha Merrain is murdered and Cecily reveals a surprisingly tender side to herself, singing an old lullaby over her ashes, before she begins hunting for justice...one of those against her is Cordell who gets himself killed, while Cecily learns just how powerful Ali really is...upon Calder springing his coup, Cecily evades a Blood Hunt, protects Ali and turns the tables, revealing Erin plotting against Calder, winning her way back into Kindred society and actually manages to get Erin spared while pretending otherwise...
As things go bad, Cecily digs more into Ali and learns she's the daughter of a famous vampire hunter known as The Mortician. Luring Ali to her, Cecily and Ali argue when Cecily reveals she knows Ali is a traitor who's giving information to the Hunters...Ali reveals her own tragic past (her father literally fed her to a vampire in hopes she might be sired so he could use her as a mole)....Cecily? Decides "fuck it." She's done. They'll let the Hunters wipe out the court...and she and Ali can run together, find a place to settle down and just live.
Ali has different ideas, backstabbing Cecily and leading an attack on the courts...only to turn it about so the vampires win, as Cecily arrives to slaughter her way through the Hunters. Cecily saves Calder and sets up Ali's confession to her...see, Ali reveals she's doing it for Cecily...so Cecily can become Prince with Ali at her side, the two ruling together. Cecily rebukes Ali, that she never wanted that...with Calder's help, Ali is exposed and flees with Cecily hunting her...Cecily reveals she made a deal with the city's Nosferatu, trapping Ali as the two square off, Ali snarling she can fight and survive...but Cecily says she needs to kill Ali and it needs to be a brutal one for all she's done...
And Ali throws her weapon aside, walking to Cecily and tells Cecily to do it, commit the ultimate vampire sin: Cecily bites into Ali's neck and diablerizes her, consuming her blood and soul. A sorrowful Cecily holds Ali's body, but now everyone fears her and she's united the Twin Cities...and Ian Carfax names her Prince.
The final sene is Prince Cecily visiting her sister for the last time, Karen having slipped into a coma she'll never reawaken from, in all likelihood. Cecily's got power, but she has nobody
....except she hears Ali's voice in her head, implying her protege isn't gone after all but lives on inside her.
How's she operate? Mitigating issues?
Oh yes. Oh hell yes. Cecily is GOOD. Now, for most of her life, Cecily's content to be an enforcer. She's happy as Sheriff (in all but name) and enforcing the law...then boom. Cecily is kinda reactive but as a plotter, she's exceptionally effective. She reverses a situation aganst her to reunite the fractures in the Vampire government and constantly outplays her enemies.
IT's true Cecily can be caught off guard a few times, but the only people who pull one over on her fully are Calder, and she completely reverses it back on him...and Ali, who Cecily has a blindspot for. But by the end, she matches Ali and beats her, even if Ali allows Cecily to kill her at the end....
Okay, mitigating issues. I'm not even gonna sugarcoat it: Cecily is evil. She opens the comic killing an innocent woman for the Masquerade and callously driving that in to her lover how it's his fault. She sets up a drug dealer for Ali to feed on and while she doesn't intend for Ali to kill him, she conceals very key information to teach Ali a hard lesson about vampire life in case she does. She lets an innocent man be attacked by a vampire at one point looking to feed...
That said...Cecily's complex. People assume with what a cold, hard bitch she can be, she must've grown up brutally. In fact, Cecily loved her father dearly and her one light is her sister Karen...whom she keeps visiting even as Karen's dementia clearly tortures her. But Ali...Ali as a scared waif gets to Cecily, who passes Ali as her own Childe which means giving up a chance to sire Karen as she's only allowed one Childe (and violating that would mean lethal repercussions for her and her childer) ....Cecily, though she'd deny it to the end, loves Ali and is clearly remorseful over Ali's death. She clearly cared for Prince Samantha, singing a gentle lullaby for her and reveals the two were friends, she's friends with other former Anarchs and at one point when she tries to snack on a guy and is interrupted by a Hunter, she knocks the guy out, kills the Hunter and ensures the body is taken are of, leaving the guy unharmed, making sure he doesn't need to deal with emotional or legal problems by being near a drained corpse.
Conclusion?
Strong yes to Cecily Bain and the third one is gonna be obvious at this point.
Goku Black
Bain
