Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

"Molly is constantly using the power of the Unown to exert her will in spite of it being clear to even a child her age that it's causing nothing but pain to those around her."

Giving power like that to a child is bound to lead to chaos even if they're not suffering grief and trauma. Molly's behavior makes total sense and does not contradict a highly sympathetic situation.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

She's also so young she has no idea what's even happening is you know not basically a game

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

As for Norman? I made the entry and I’m not sure if I went overboard on it given my feelings on the character. Any idea how to condense it?

Someone added the below to the Octopath Traveler: Champions of the Continent page for Unintentionally Unsympathetic. Spoilers for the game and Octopath in general.

I don't fully agree with either of these entries. The former is invoking strong Draco in Leather Pants defenses for antagonists that the story makes clear are evil people, while the later has big Designated Hero or Ron the Death Eater arguments for why the Heroic Mime player character is somehow not sympathetic. I don't know what the point of these are trying to say when they are directed at characters that aren't really active agents or characterized like other story characters are.

I feel like both should be cut, and if any of these ideas are true (which I don't fully agree with personally) there are other tropes that cover some of the ideas better.

• We're meant to see the gods sealed in the rings as being corrupted by their Ringbearers, but since their rings were given to nobodies, it comes across as if Aeber, Draefendi and Biflegan were actually the ones who corrupted their Ringbearers instead of the other way around. It doesn't help that, in Aeber's case, Lyblac (Aeber's evil niece) gave his ring to Auguste second-hand through Simeon. Heck, even Aelfric, the only one who is stated to be uncorrupted, falls under this, as Sonzon states that Aelfric was constantly trying to get Sonzon to fulfill Aelfric's desires. This and the actions of the church the players see as wrong (giving Tytos a Historical Hero Upgrade, ruling in favor of Pardis, raping Pharamea) makes Aelfric's Incorruptible Pure Pureness status an Informed Ability, and Aelfric only remains sympathetic because it's established that this is a series where Light Is Good. The only ring gods who could have said to be corrupted by its bearers are Alephan and Sealticge, as their Ringbearers were respectively Pardis and Tatloch, the only ones who could have started their reigns of terror without their Rings, as Brand and Dother were given to their Ringbearers from Lyblac (again, the evil niece of the twelve "good" gods), second-hand through Ceraphina in the former's case, outright direcly in the latter's (Dother's Ringbearer was Ceraphina). While one could argue that Brand, Dother and Aeber were corrupted by Lyblac, it's still not the same thing as them being corrupted by their Ringbearers as the narration makes it out to be.
• Yourself, if you think about it. While up until the Bestower Saga our actions can feel justified, sparing Tatloch, who is the most evil of the main story characters (fans joke Fiore's mother is worse than Tatloch, but since she's a side character it doesn't count), instead of the more sympathetic Oskha and Ceraphina (of course, after knocking a lot of sense in the two, as Oskha is extremely cynical and Ceraphina made a Deal with the Devil) makes it feel like The Chosen One doesn't care about Orsterra. It doesn't help that The Chosen One doesn't seem to care for the quote-unquote "friends" they're allegedly saving, as the only time they show remorse for one of their deaths or sympathy to someone that survive because of one of said deaths is Elrica's, and even then, that was only temporary if Bestower of All is any indication. And the Heroic Mime idea is thrown out of the window by the fact all travelers have spoken lines, even if only in Traveler Stories. Some people believe that, if The Chosen One had basic human decency, they'd have been the one to get fed up with the crimes humanity did in the name of desire instead of Sazantos.

Edited by keyblade333 on Mar 1st 2024 at 11:03:34 AM

Muramasa got.

More Barbie:

Unintentionally Unsympathetic: A lot of viewers found Barbie unlikeable as a protagonist because of the fact that her plight in the film pales in comparison to Ken's, who is treated as a second-class citizen in Barbieland, yet she spends most of the film overlooking Ken's struggles and at the end ensures he and the other Kens will be re-subjugated by the Barbies without making much of an effort to make things more equal in Barbieland.

Aside from my personal annoyance at this, it's not really true? She doesn't owe Ken anything, the Kens brainwashed the Barbies, and she's got all that existential dread going on.

I cut up one dozen new men and you will die somewhat, again and again.

Axe it. Why does this keep coming up? She’s not supposed to be sympathetic in those moments.

In honor of Akira Toriyama

I cut it. Should we add a note not to add back without approval?

The whole point is that Ken's are treated the way women are in the Real World, evidenced by how Barbie gets sexually harassed pretty much the second she goes to the Real World. And like others said she isn't meant to be sympathetic in the Ken situation and she acknowledges it at the end.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

Yeah add a note on the Barbie page. This is like the fourth or fifth time it has come up on this thread.

Edited by Bullman on Mar 1st 2024 at 3:22:20 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

Added the note.

Question about this from UnintentionallySympathetic.Video Games:

• In The Last of Us, Joel during the ending. The game and its sequel go far to portray Joel's decision to murderously prevent the Fireflies fatal brain surgery of Ellie (the only known person immune to the Cordyceps Brain Infection) to create a vaccine as a selfish choice that may have well doomed humanity and The Last of Us Part II even has Ellie claim that she was supposed to die in that operating room. Yet the Grey-and-Gray Morality of it all, fell flat for many players as the Fireflies come off as too antagonistic and incompetent to be sympathetic and the fact they didn’t even get Ellie's permission, just knocked her out and got out the scalpels as more than enough incentive for Joel to pump them full of lead. Worse still there's notes you can find in Firefly's lab that detail how they've actually fatally experimented on other infected subjects to zero success and were planning to kill Joel (the one who delivered Ellie to them) anyway, again making Joel's actions look even more justified. Additionally science is on Joel's side as well since vaccines in Real Life don't work how the Fireflies claim and Ellie would absolutely have to be alive for any vaccine to be produced from her body, all in all making Joel's killer Papa Wolf rampage rescue look like a sane and rational choice.

The issue is Joel being US as opposed to deliberate moral grayness comes down to him being Right for the Wrong Reasons. He (as far as I can tell from the entry) didn't do it out of considering/awareness of the reasons sacrificing Ellie would fail to save/doom humanity, but more selfish Papa Bear reasons which would be as morally grey as intended (and when/how did Joel learn they intended to kill him/find the notes that prior subjects died?) Maybe this is a better fit for UU for the Fireflies?

Mostly I'm asking if/how Right for the Wrong Reasons overlaps/connects with US/UU. Does RFTWR being non-YMMV mean it has to be intentional so anything unintended falls under US/UU? Or are/should the be separate as by definition not part of the reasoning process for their sympathy or lack of it?

I feel Joel can stay under the Sympathetic entry. Both the sequel and HBO show try to paint Joel as the man who doomed humanity, but he’s got too many supporters from both a humane and scientific perspective

So would the scientific reasons he's right only be Right for the Wrong Reasons if it was intentional, US otherwise?

From Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League

"Harley is supposed to be in the right during Batman's death scene, because before she pulls the trigger, she gives Batman a "The Reason You Suck" Speech and brings up how he severely physically and mentally damages his enemies."

To me the scene makes it seem like its the hypocritical rambling of a deranged villain rather than a valid point.

And even if it was meant to be a Villain Has a Point Harley still doesn't come across as remotely sympathetic, she jokingly says that even when Batman is evil he's "too good" and sadistically gloats about being the one to kill him.

From The New Order Last Days Of Europe:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: As part of the West African War's depiction as a Grey-and-Gray Morality conflict, Free France is characterized as a desperate band of exiles who want to return to their homeland and liberate it from the Vichy regime. But it is impossible to ignore the expansion of French imperialism that comes with Free France's continued presence in West Africa. This would mean the exploitation and abuse of thousands of Africans, all for the slim chance of potentially invading mainland Europe and benefiting the French at everyone else's expense. While the mod has some world news events bringing up the costs of French colonialism, many do not think it goes far enough in its condemnation, especially since many of these same events bring up the possibility of Free France taking a lighter hand than OTL France, promises that many are skeptical about them keeping. It also doesn't help that the French Reclamation, which requires a French victory in the West African War, is portrayed as an unambiguously good thing; while few will dispute that Vichy France is the greater evil and deserves to be destroyed, it does not bring sufficient attention to the French colonial antics back in West Africa and the fact that the Reclamation will cost the bones and blood of thousands of Africans who will never receive the rights they were promised.

This should be cut. I am in the TNO fandom and from what I see, Free France is not meant to be fully sympathetic because they want to hold onto West Africa as much as possible at the expense of the native population. Pitable yes, but not necessarily sympathetic. Free France vs. West African socialists vs. West African independent states is also seen as one of the few conflicts where the American bloc aren't the "grey" in TNO's Black-and-Grey Morality, the other being Haiti, because the Nazis and the Japanese aren't as involved in either theatre and thus there isn't really much of a moral high ground the US can claim against two objectively evil regimes unlike in most other conflicts in the setting(well it's actually debatable to what extent Japan is involved in West Africa since they do kinda arm the socialists, but it is clear the socialists actually hate Japan and see through their rhetoric and in reality they want to cut any diplomatic ties with Japan ASAP, so the US is really waging war against well-intentioned Pan-African socialists not being manipulated by the fascist blocs).

A case can actually be argued that there is A LOT of Unintentionally Sympathetic combined with a degree of Draco in Leather Pants and Rooting for the Empire instead regarding Free France because of the idea that they can return to the homeland if France collapses is VERY popular among the playerbase. I will say the why this is the case gets rather politically charged but in general alternate history scenarios where the French government gets banished to Algeria because of a takeover of mainland france by political extremists tend to draw A LOT of sympathy from players(unless they come from a(mainly left-leaning) political background that does not let countries off the hook for the evils of colonialism) regardless of them exerting oppression over their colonies, particuarly those coming from a liberal, centre-right or conservative political background due to the fact that people with these politics tend to overlook or downplay colonialism to this day—and this is not discounting even further right players that glorify the whole thing.

Edited by xie323 on Mar 8th 2024 at 6:04:41 AM

& keep Joel settle Harley

I'm not asking about keeping Joel, I already agree with keeping.

I'm asking, using him as an example, if Right for the Wrong Reasons applies or not if it was unintentional (if it's worth potholing into his US entry to explain why). Or is the scope of RFTWR a question for elsewhere?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Mar 8th 2024 at 6:53:35 AM

In that case no, because I doubt Joel was thinking of that as a motive

Any comments on the example from TNO?

From The Lost World: Jurassic Park, under Unintentionally Sympathetic

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• The compies become this once Dieter shocks one of them for his own amusement. The audience is clearly meant to root for them when they give him his Just Desserts later, never mind that the film's opening has them nearly doing the same to an innocent 8-year-old girl.

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It should be under Unintentionally Sympathetic the way its written... but honestly I'd say iyt should be cut entirely. The compies are merely animals hunting prey, without any malice.

Yeah, we don't sympathize with the compies. We just want Dieter to get his. It's not really a YMMV thing.

Yeah that feels more like Catharsis Factor.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

Its been cut.

Edited by generation81 on Mar 13th 2024 at 10:35:12 AM

So Joel doesn't qualify as Right for the Wrong Reasons, should those scientific reasons be removed (it's Audience Awareness Advantage about something Joel never considered as part of his justification) as his US entry still has enough to be valid without, and moved to the Firefly's UU entry as part of the strikes against them?

anyone else want to weigh in on Harley?

I’d say remove Harley since she’s a villian protagonsit