Hi, folks! We're currently in the middle of an extended wiki development project that will add some nifty tools to the moderation kit (and some bells and whistles for tropers as well). While a full list of what's coming is outside the scope of this topic, there is one very specific thing that needs community involvement and feedback: the namespace configuration system.
In a Nutshell
We're changing namespaces from informal components that anyone can add (you can make an article in the "Glurkbrgl" namespace if you want, just by editing it) to a formal list of allowed values. This list can be added to and offers additional controls, such as the ability to set which style sheet is used by articles in the namespace, which page type is the default, the icon for the namespace tab bar, and how editing and article creation work.Namespace Configuration System
- Namespaces will be itemized in a database table.
- There will be a php page where anyone can view the list and the settings for each namespace, and mods can edit them.
- The configuration system will have (roughly) the following attributes:
- Name: (Main, YMMV, etc.) This will include the canonical capitalization of the namespace (see below).
- Editing Status: This will be a selection from a list of possible restrictions, from "Open" (anyone can edit/create articles) to "Require TLP" (article creation must go through Trope Launch Pad) to "Closed" (nobody can edit or create articles), and a few more.
- Page Type: The default page type to assign to articles in the namespace (a work, a creator, a trope, a subpage, etc.).
- Style: Main, Darth Wiki, Sugar Wiki, etc.
- Auto-Index: Whether the namespace behaves like normal or is automatically indexed, such as in Laconic Wiki.
- Icon: Choose the icon that appears in the namespace tab bar in the header of wiki articles.
- When anyone requests a wiki article (HTTP GET to pmwiki.php), the namespace part of the URL will be checked and forced to the proper capitalization. This will prevent things like "Ymmv", which break wiki functionality.
- When anyone tries to create or edit an article, the namespace configuration will be checked to determine if that action is allowed. If creation is blocked, a suitable message will be displayed. If editing is blocked, then the article will display as locked.
What We Need
What we need from the community is agreement on which namespaces should be kept and which should be discarded. The wiki has accumulated a lot of cruft due to the free-for-all nature of namespace creation, and we want to start with as clean a slate as possible.For reference:
- The formal namespace list is here: Namespace.
- The complete list of namespaces may be viewed with this tool: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/articlecount.php
- The full list of articles in any particular namespace may be seen here, except that it won't work for Main: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/namespace_index.php?ns=YMMV.
How This Will Work
If we decide not to keep a namespace, any articles in it should either be cut or moved to a more suitable namespace. Any such namespaces that have remaining articles when the new system goes live will be set to "Closed", so that nobody can make new ones and the existing ones will be automatically locked.For all remaining namespaces, we need to populate the initial settings: page type, editing status, and style. Note that many of these are already known and configured, so we'll carry those over — there's no need to renegotiate the status of Main or YMMV, for example. I'm mainly talking about the odder ones like, say, Castle.
After the system goes live, if anyone tries to add an article that isn't in an approved namespace, the attempt will be blocked. Requesting new namespaces would be done in the Locked Pages topic or some other topic we create specifically for that purpose.
Rules and Procedures
- The working list of namespaces to load into the configuration system will be stored in Namespace Cleanup Project.
- Any user may bring up a namespace that they think should be removed or given special handling.
- If there is significant immediate consensus, we'll approve it and any required actions (cleanup, transplants) can begin.
- If consensus is not clear, then we will use a crowner to collect votes.
We will also answer general questions about the system in this topic, but we will keep it focused specifically on the namespace project. Off-topic thumps will be used if needed.
- Q: Are we changing any media namespaces (Film, Western Animation, Manhua, etc.)?
A: No, we are not. That's not in the scope of the project; the intent is to configure all media namespaces as they currently exist. - Q: What are we doing with examples subpages (like Castle.Tropes Ato D)?
A: We want to clean those up. Check out this post to see some ideas, and this Google Drive doc for a list of all such articles.
Note: We can't just merge them back together, as most were hard split for size to begin with. - Q: So what should we focus on?
A: That's a great question! We're looking mainly at namespaces that have fewer than 40 articles in them, and that are not medium namespaces. In other words, let's start from the bottom of the list. In particular, let's get rid of one-off namespaces that aren't being used for actual trope content. - Q: Is there a list of all namespaces that are being used for trope example subpages?
A: Thanks for asking. Yes, it's here. Note that some media namespaces were caught in the query.
Edited by nombretomado on Jan 5th 2020 at 11:39:34 AM
Purposefully Untitled
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That's what we figured. Not to mention, the two fics in the series have their own sub-pages for tropes, so splitting it up would be impractical at best.
If that's all, then I guess we're done with that one.
SpaceBattles.com fanworks (unnoficial) index in my Sandbox.
he/him | Image Pickin' regular
The Dub Name Change subpages of Pokémon and Ace Attorney are NameChange.Pokemon and NameChange.Ace Attorney, but all other subpages use the namespace DubNameChange/. Should those two be moved to DubNameChange/ or the other six moved to NameChange/?
Edited by rjd1922 on Jul 9th 2020 at 12:02:13 PM
Keet cleanup
We generally want to use the full name if possible, and "Dub Name Change" isn't overwhelmingly long or anything like that. I'd move the NameChange pages to DubNameChange.
Also you don't want to confuse it with Adaptation Name Change.
he/him | Image Pickin' regular
I moved them to DubNameChange.Ace Attorney and DubNameChange.Pokemon; the old titles have 1,751 and 580 inbounds respectively, so should they be kept as redirects? Also, I found Name Change Index which only lists those two pages; it seems redundant since the main Dub Name Change page does indexing.
Keet cleanup
Keeping them could cause confusion. I say cut them but leave a link to the new page in the cut reason. "moved to [new page]"
Name Change Index should be cut, too.
Angry babby
There are four pages in the Commercials namespace (Pantheon.Commercials, TakeThat.Commercials, SuspiciouslySimilarSong.Commercials, and Heartwarming.Commercials). They should be moved to the Advertising namespace instead.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Oh right, sorry, flipped the script. But they should still be moved and I figured this was the best place to bring it up.
Edited by mightymewtron on Jul 15th 2020 at 6:14:53 AM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
I'm helping!
Technically that's not the namespace.
But yes.
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
he/him | Image Pickin' regular
Pantheon.Advertising already exists as a separate page from Pantheon.Commercials, but the other three should be moved.
Edited by rjd1922 on Jul 19th 2020 at 10:13:00 AM
Keet cleanup
Industrious Incisors
I just saw that there’s BioshockInfinite.Burial At Sea. Something’s not right.
SoundCloud
I'm helping!
Yeah, DLC doesn't get namespaced to its origin game, that's silly. Okay, on closer inspection, that's clearly meant to be a trope subpage of BioShock Infinite, so it's kinda right — still, since it's written and wicked to like a works page, it should be at either VideoGame.Burial At Sea or VideoGame.Bio Shock Infinite Burial At Sea.
Edited by wingedcatgirl on Aug 5th 2020 at 6:00:02 AM
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
he/him | Image Pickin' regular
I don't think we usually hard split DLC. If we were going to, would we have to split the subpages too (e.g. move the entries on YMMV.Bioshock Infinite to YMMV.Burial At Sea)?
EDIT: But we do have Minion Quest: The Search for Bowser and Bowser Jr.'s Journey, which are just modes in the Mario & Luigi remakes rather than their own standalone games.
Edited by rjd1922 on Aug 5th 2020 at 8:05:25 AM
Keet cleanup
he/him | Image Pickin' regular
I moved Heartwarming.Commercials, SuspiciouslySimilarSong.Commercials, and TakeThat.Commercials to Advertising and changed all the wicks. They have 5182, 4208, and 1015 inbounds respectively; is that enough to keep any of them as redirects?
Edited by rjd1922 on Aug 17th 2020 at 4:17:16 AM
Keet cleanup
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Normally, yes, but because they're subpages and Main.Commercials is a redirect to Advertising, I don't think it is necessary.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
I remember when the VideoGame.Bio Shock Infinite page was getting too big, the Burial at Sea section was already soft-split off, so someone asked if it should get its own page or stay on the main one. I suggested splitting it off in addition to the alphabetical tropes, to make the page cleaner. I don't think I was the one who actually did the splitting, but the point is that the split isn't the problem. Just moving it to VideoGame.Bio Shock Infinite Burial At Sea should be sufficient.
I'd prefer to split the YMMV subpage, but since it's not already sorted, it's probably not worth the effort. Just redirect YMMV.Bio Shock Infinite Burial At Sea to YMMV.Bio Shock Infinite and call it a day.
Edited by Discar on Aug 20th 2020 at 11:14:10 AM
Logic Girl
UsefulNotes.Digging To China is well-written, but shouldn't it be Analysis.Digging To China instead?
For every low there is a high.
Yeah, that sounds more like an analysis of the trope.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Shouldn't WesternAnimation.Itchy And Scratchy (the cartoon within a cartoon for The Simpsons) be a "Just For Fun"? After all, JustForFun.Horsin Around (the show-within-a-show for Bojack Horseman) exists, and that namespace would prevent those unfamiliar with mistaking it for an actual show.
Friends forevermore
The reason the others are in JFF is that the present themselves as if the works were real in our universe.
The page for The Itchy & Scratchy Show presents itself as real in The Simpsons' universe.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
Still, I'm a bit confused about what namespace a Show Within a Show goes in. Maybe if pretty much all we can trope are In-Universe audience reactions and nothing related to its medium (e.g. JustForFun.Fix It Felix Jr) it goes in JFF.
Well that sounds fine except “Itchy and Scratchy” is given the “Western Animation” namespace when it doesn’t actually exist outside of the Simpsons. If “Itchy and Scratchy” was an actual spin-off of the Simpsons or something, that’d be fine. But I just don’t think something that’s not a real work should be put in the same namespace as actual works. That just feels iffy to me.
Plus, most of the examples are in-universe (for the Itchy and Scratchy show) and don’t really mention the Simpsons.
Edited by antenna_ears on Nov 15th 2020 at 4:47:39 AM
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Except that a Show Within a Show is a work. You've restated why you don't think it should be troped, but the argument doesn't seem convincing to me. It is a work, works get pages, simple as that. Itchy & Scratchy is a cartoon, it goes in the cartoon namespace. Nothing about the page misrepresents reality like the JFF category does.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
I'm helping!
Itchy and Scratchy doesn't "exist" outside the Simpsons, but the very short episodes are typically shown in full, so it can be troped directly without regard to its relation to the outer work.
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
Lost in Space
The distinction for Just for Fun is not whether a work only exists In-Universe but whether the content of the TV Tropes article is made up by tropers or based on something verifiable and real.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Due to how long the list of examples is, it's easily worthy of its own page.