Setting Up Trope Relationships

Yes to both.

@lakingsif: So, All of Time at Once by definition has to involve a Time Crash in some shape or form?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

well, yeh, Time Crash covers just about anything where time isn't working as expected

OH MY GOD; MY PARENTS ARE GARDENIIIIINNNNGGGGG!!!!!

~Crazysamaritan: What do you mean by "moving things around", related to Long-Runners, that would need a Projects thread?

Long-Runners is now a Trope.

I was gonna turn the index at the end of its description into this, before I saw that.

Edited by Malady on Jan 17th 2019 at 4:35:40 AM

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No, the definition is explicit that it only covers large-scale reality breaking effects, not "any examples where time isn't working as expected". It references other tropes for small-scale spacio-temporal disruptions. Time Crash is defined as a disaster affecting all of space-time.

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The index looks fine; I was referring to making sure Long-Runners doesn't duplicate the subtrope examples and that the main page and subpages use the same categories. That's a lot of information to work through, so I think a dedicated short-term project would facilitate verifying organization.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

- I see. Yeah, just looking at Long-Runners' source for "Literature" comes up with a few entries, that seem, by definition, should go in Long-Running Book Series.

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The question was brought up here whether Mythology Gag should be considered a Sub-Trope of Shout-Out. (I'm inclined to think that it should; it's specifically a Shout-Out to some facet of a show's history and/or production.)

Looking at both trope descriptions, though, I'm thinking that Shout-Out might be considered the Super-Trope to a whole host of different Sub Tropes, such as Continuity Nod, Discontinuity Nod, Actor Allusion, etc. It's broad enough and there are so many tropes that are listed as "related" (but when you look at how they're related, are almost certainly subtropes) that it might actually be worth it to put a bulleted list of subtropes on the Shout-Out page with a short description of when each applies.

E.g.:

• Actor Allusion: A Shout-Out to an actor's previous work.
• Call-Back: A Shout-Out to something that happened previously within the same continuity.
• Continuity Nod: A Shout-Out... to something that happened... previously within the same continuity?
• Development Gag: A Shout-Out to something that happened during the development of the work.
• Discontinuity Nod: A Shout-Out to something that previously happened within the same continuity but has since been retconned out, either officially or due to Fanon Discontinuity.
• The Joy of X: A Shout-Out that plays with the form of another work's title.
• Literary Allusion Title: A Shout-Out in which a work is titled using a quote or other allusion to literature.
• Mythology Gag: A Shout-Out to some facet of a show's history or production that is not part of the same Canon.
• Opening Shout-Out: A Shout-Out to the show's own Title Sequence.
• Shout-Out Theme Naming: A Shout-Out that takes the form of a group of characters' names.
• Stock Shoutouts: A Shout-Out that is particularly common.

There might be more, that's just what I was able to find in a quick scan of those pages' "See also" / "related to" / "compare and contrast" sections.

While I'm at it: what exactly is the difference between Call-Back and Continuity Nod? Because I'm looking at both pages and they do a crap job of explaining it.

Edited by HighCrate on Jan 25th 2019 at 3:40:06 AM

- Agreed.

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Call-Back has direct influence on the plot, Continuity Nod is just a Shout-Out for the sake of it. I think both pages explain it pretty well, actually.

Edited by Asherinka on Jan 25th 2019 at 2:01:34 PM

- Oh, yeah...

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I think it's the specific example that both give that's throwing me for a loop, because it strikes me as a hair-splitting distinction:

Compare:

• Continuity Nod: "Remember When You Blew Up a Sun? You should have no problem taking down a few mooks!"
• Call-Back: "Remember When You Blew Up a Sun? Let's do the same thing here to take down these mooks!"

Like, what? What even is that?

There's also Stock Shout-Outs, which indexes common shoutouts, and Shout-Outs Index, which... indexes common shoutouts?

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

- Continuity Nod is just basically, "Remember when we X?" "Yeah, X happened."

Vs. "I want you to do Y, since it's like X".

...

The difference is, like the difference between mentioning a trope, vs. actually using a trope?

Edited by Malady on Jan 25th 2019 at 6:13:07 AM

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Looking through Call-Back's example subpages, a lot of examples don't fit the "must have a direct influence on the plot" criteria. Like, a lot a lot. Like, so many that it might take a dedicated cleanup thread to deal with it, if that's actually what the difference is supposed to be.

Edited by HighCrate on Jan 25th 2019 at 7:03:06 AM

Shout-Outs Index seems to be good enough for a list of subtropes (it's already an index, too). The difference between Continuity Nod and Call-Back is that one is supposed to be a Plot Point?

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What do the rest of you think about the relationship between Same Face, Different Name and Pen Name?

Edited by crazysamaritan on Jan 26th 2019 at 10:14:26 AM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Shout-Outs Index is apparently the More than Meets the Eye to Shout-Out's Hidden Depths: the index of subtropes is so long that it was split off into a separate page to keep the trope description reasonably concise.

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Age-Gap Romance says that May–December Romance is the extreme form of this trope. May–December Romance then says that it's the mundane counterpart to Mayfly–December Romance.

I don't know about you guys, but Mayfly–December Romance seems to me as either a subtrope of May–December Romance (by the simple virtue of taking it to the fantastic Logical Extreme), or a sister trope to it by being a direct subtrope to Age-Gap Romance.

Relatedly, Wife Husbandry claims to be a "subtrope" of either May–December Romance or Mayfly–December Romance, depending on the nature of the age gap (mundane vs. fantastically extreme). We've long already established that subtropeness cannot be partial, so depending on what we do with May–December Romance and Mayfly–December Romance's own relationship, I think Wife Husbandry is either just a subtrope of May–December Romance (if Mayfly–December Romance is also a subtrope of the same trope), or a subtrope of Age-Gap Romance that by definition has to intersect either of its two sister tropes May–December Romance and Mayfly–December Romance.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

- So our main problem with Shout-Out is that Shout-Outs Index isn't wicked from Shout-Out.

Easy fix.

But I'll let someone else do it?

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And that Stock Shout-Outs is redundant when we already have Shout-Outs Index. And that there's not a distinction between Continuity Nod and Call-Back that is consistently applied among all the examples pages.

Age-Gap Romance

I agree; list Wife Husbandry, May–December Romance, and Mayfly–December Romance as sister tropes because they all share the Super-Trope of AGR. Mayfly Vs May usually takes a bit of Fridge logic because they'll often appear to be the same age in the Mayfly examples, whereas May examples are usually pretty obvious at a glance. WH could acceptably overlap with either sistertrope.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

The strange thing is that if you go by some of the points in the "checklist" for May–December Romance, Mayfly–December Romance is a subtrope in the mind of whoever wrote them, they just mysteriously neglected to actually state that explicitly.

Point #2 begins with "Presuming normal human lifespans ..." This implies that having a lifespan exceeding that of a normal human is still within the scope of May–December Romance.

Point #5 reads as follows:

This is literally what a Mayfly–December Romance example is.

Also, regarding the obviousness of the age gap... it's not always so, according to the checklist.

Depending on how well the older party has aged, it's well within the realm of plausibility for the age gap to be increasingly obfuscated as the couple ages. As long as they qualified for the trope when the relationship started, however, they would still qualify as an example; it's not required that we could immediately notice the age gap, only that we get informed of both it and the fact that they're in a relationship, plus fulfilling the other criteria.

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On a different note, Tank-Top Tomboy has a problematic sentence in its description.

What the hell does "zig-zagged subtrope" even mean?! I say we just swap that with "May overlap with", but I'd like second opinions first.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

They seem to be saying that tank-tops are guy clothing, and that on a girl, it's Stripperific?

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Right, that's why I used Weasel Words like "usually".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

So... What's the final verdict? Is Mayfly–December Romance a subtrope of May–December Romance, or not? I'm leaning towards "yes".

Do "male-intended" tank tops even look visibly different from "female-intended" ones, besides different arm hole sizes due to different average proportions between the two sexes?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Sure; if there's two elves who are 20 versus 200 years old, then they're an example of May–December Romance if their average lifespan is 400, but not if the average lifespan is 800 years. Mayfly requires that the lifespan isn't compatible, and regular May Romance doesn't require that.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Which doesn't preclude Mayfly being a subtrope of May.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.