The Scrappy Cleanup

Katz is the only one of those who really feels like the entry's focused on the fans disliking them, though. Reccoa reads more like a stealth Hate Sink entry than anything else (which makes me wonder if she even counts) and the last one seems to argue against itself.

Fair enough. I wanted to make sure these characters would stand up to scrutiny to be a part of this page, but that doesn't seem to be the case for all of them.

Katz is as you said, disliked by fans. His story is supposed to be a tragedy, and the audience is supposed to sympathize with this kid, but he doesn't learn from his mistakes and they end up causing characters to die (case in point, the aforementioned Sarah who sacrifices herself to save Katz). It doesn't help that the series already has a hotheaded protagonist in Kamille Bidan, who tries his best to be a mentor to Katz and fails. Kamille is basically the angry teenage pilot done right, so Katz is a special kind of incompetent when even Kamille looks calm by comparison.

Reccoa is an interesting case, in that she is used as a focal point for critics of the overall writing flaws in Zeta. The show tries to make a point about the complex relationships between men and women, and Reccoa preaches these ideas the loudest. The fans lost their sympathy when she fell in with the biggest womanizer in the show, all while calling one of the heroes (Quattro) sexist for apparently leading her on. Reccoa's hypocrisy would mark her as a clear-cut Hate Sink in modern times, but in the show, the heroes still sympathize with her and try to get her to come to her senses. Emma's comments about Reccoa possibly dying unmourned come from a place of bitterness, not hatred. The fact that the heroes want her back makes me believe Reccoa was supposed to be sympathetic to the audience too, which failed, and therefore made her a Scrappy.

Beltorchika got a lot of hate, but then rescued herself from the Scrappy Heap before the show even ended. I wouldn't mind eliminating her entry at all, as a lot of hate seemed to come from her not fulfilling fan expectations when it came to being "Amuro's girlfriend."

@Velma: We've been over this. Even people who like Velma the show tend to despise Velma the character and prefer Daphne and Fred, sometimes Norville.

When I asked about that Velma, ATT majority said otherwise. That aside for a bit…

How were you able determine/separate what fans of the show felt of her from the overwhelming hatedom? (No one from the ATT was able to find such.) And how is it said fans hate her insanely enough to count as Scrappy as opposed to lesser dislike but not find her a dealbreaker in liking the show? (That it wasn't fans of the show so visibly hating her/writing the Scrappy entries seem to argue against.)

I'm open to re-evaluating her as Scrappy if there's new information/arguments, but given all the issues/grey areas she's run afoul with I'd say the safest thing is use the "hated portrayal of otherwise popular character" misuse as the tiebreaker to disqualify her.

There's an entry in Pokémon Scarlet and Violet that I don't think belongs:

First thing, I don't think Geeta is hated in Japan, which this entry of course probably didn't take into account. I've seen a lot of fanart of her that suggests that she isn't hated in the game's home country, and most of the things I've seen in western discourse is more that her Pokemon team isn't very good, but that's not the same as actual hatred.

Also, the entry doesn't really seem to say why she's hated for narrative reasons and reads more like someone who just finds her boring and not very appealing. The Anti-Climax boss thing is also irrelevant since a character has to be hated for narrative reasons to count.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Sep 18th 2023 at 8:45:17 AM

• Until Insomniac Games saved him in the sequels by toning down his attitude, Ratchet of Ratchet & Clank was this to many reviewers, who claimed that only Clank's presence in the game kept them putting up with Ratchet's Jerkass tendencies; some even said that the sequels should have focused solely on Clank, leaving the poor Lombax out entirely. Prior Cleanup said to cut as this violates the consistently hated rule given he was redeemed since second game (vast majority of series), but worth asking again.
  • Helga. She says she can do better than Ratchet on fitness courses, though we don't see her do anything but yap all the time. An unlikable trait but fails to demonstrate widespread hated.
  • The villains of Size Matters, Otto Destruct and Luna, are considered forgettable villains. The former is a narmy rehash of Chairman Drek with some elements of Gleeman Vox, and the latter is infamous for being That One Boss and a Plot Twist gone wrong. Might be valid but says forgettable as opposed to disliked and gameplay and vague on why the Plot Twist is disliked.
  • The Y.E.T.I.s from Going Commando, due to having enough health that even a lot of the strongest guns in the game take a while to kill them, being absurdly strong, and spawning constantly. Even the developer, Insomniac, admitted they were one of the worst elements of the game, and give a "Snowbeast Award" named after the creature to the person who made the worst feature of a game after release. Clear misuse as group and gameplay not narrative.
  • Also from Going Commando is the New Age Mystic for being generally unhelpful and requiring the hard-to-get Moonstones just to do something. Borderline on if hate is gameplay and character just forgettable as opposed to hatedom.

Thoughts?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Sep 19th 2023 at 8:25:14 AM

Yeet it.

1. Rescued from the Scrappy Heap

2. I have seen complaints that the Luna twist was stupid and her boss fight is hated but nothing on Otto Destruct. Size Matters as a whole is generally poorly received.

3. Scrappy Mechanic / Boss in Mook's Clothing / Demonic Spiders

4. That One Sidequest (the character is the giver of a sidequest leading to many, many encounters with the aforementioned Y.E.T.I.S. Plus he's rude, but that's no surprise in old Ratchet and Clank games)

Edited by PhiSat on Sep 20th 2023 at 11:10:47 AM

Does that mean we can remove Geeta's entry? On the subject of Scarlet and Violet this was added albeit commented out:

I get why she'd not have fans but a lot of people also like her own Character Development through the story even if to some it may not be enough but at the very least we can't consider this entry valid?

Yeah the Y.E.T.I.s sound like they deserve their own section in Demonic Spiders and maybe Creator's Pest but that's not enough for a regular Scrappy entry.

If she still has a particularly strong hatedom outside Japan, that might be Americans Hate Tingle. Otherwise, she's just an Anti-Climax Boss. Probably worth deleting either way.

I question this entry from Godzilla (1998), since I was under the impression that The Scrappy refers to a character hated by FANS of the work

• This version of Godzilla himself is pretty much the scrappy of the Godzilla fandom, first being demoted to "Zilla" in the first place (for taking the "God" out of Godzilla, since as of 2016, it officially means "God Incarnate"), then being referenced dismissively in a couple of Japanese Godzilla movies before being given a brief appearance in Final Wars solely so he can be soundly trounced by the real Godzilla for the purpose of a Take That!. His species did get Rescued from the Scrappy Heap in Godzilla: The Series.

Could be Godzilla fans as a whole to a franchise. There also fans of the American version considering the popularity of the animated series.

so it can be fine if it’s part of a long running franchise, even if they’re (arguably) the main character

I remember us deciding that the whole franchise didn't count as the fandom of a specific work when we cut Velma from Velma so I don't think we should count it her.

There's also the fact that his Godzilla: Rulers of Earth incarnation is genuinely liked for being a badass Glass Cannon? Wouldn't that disqualify him by default?

The Velma removal (which I personally disgaree with, but thats besides the point) is exactly why I'm bringing up Zilla/G.I.N.O, though I guess one could also make the argument that the main character of Godzilla (1998) is Dr. Niko so I guess Zilla COULD still qualfity but at the same time its called Just Here for Godzilla for a reason

Thats why i always felt a trope about a dislike version of a character in a long running franchise could be possible.

In my opinion if you are going to be listed on a specific franchise entries page it should because of how that versions fans see you especially in case of reboots because most older fans of the franchise is going to hate you anyways. Though that is just my take. So, the question becomes if the 1998 Godzilla has a fanbase.

Edited by Bullman on Oct 2nd 2023 at 8:30:12 AM

Saw the Scrappy page for Yu-Gi-Oh, and noted this entry in the Arc-V section: “The Obelisk Force got an enormous amount of heat for not only being Jerkass Flat Characters, but also having the same deck and playing the same cards in all Duels involving them (namely, an Antique Gear deck centered around Antique Gear Hound Dog and their fused variants).”

Last I checked, aren’t groups of characters barred from this trope? Even if they are disliked as a collective, I’m pretty sure the group is too large where every individual member can’t be deemed this trope on their own merits. Think this warrants a cut.

Any other opinions on Geeta's entry that I brought up earlier? Two people have weighed in so far, but I'd like a few more opinions if possible.

I have seen people who hate Geeta for being a Bad Boss on top of finding her team pathetically weak (quite a few of the Gym Leaders have gripes against her in-game). I have no idea what the Japanese fans think of her though.

Edited by PhiSat on Oct 4th 2023 at 11:33:36 AM

Her team being weak has no bearing on her being The Scrappy, since a Scrappy has to be hated for narrative reasons, and most of the criticisms I've seen about her team isn't exactly "hate," more like simple disappointment.

If there isn't any indication that the Japanese fanbase hates her (and I have my doubts that the majority of western fans hate her as well since "not popular" =/= "hated" and most of what I've seen is just people going "meh"), the entry should probably go.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Oct 4th 2023 at 11:24:40 AM

Er, Geeta's not a "Bad Boss", she's a bad boss, there's a difference; the trope is about an evil leader

But yeah, storywise Geeta doesn't really have an impact good or negative. She's just a disappointing champion. That's because the true final battle of that route is against Nemona, and the true final battle of the game against the AI.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 4th 2023 at 2:26:22 PM

I have seen fanon that Geeta is a Mean Boss to Larry for making him work at least two different jobs in the League, so the Bad Boss wick may be misuse meant to refer to that, but it's kind of speculative.

Sorry, yeah, I meant like a Jerkass Boss, not an evil Bad Boss. A lot of Larry fans see her that way, but even characters like Ryme flat out hate Geeta. I can't think of anyone besides Nemona having a good thing to say about her, which along with her being a Memetic Loser cakewalk of a Champion makes her disliked.

I'll also comment that her not being the final challenge doesn't really change that she's still pathetically easy compared to say, Director Clavell, who's the penultimate challenge of the Team Star route and puts up a decent fight.

Edited by PhiSat on Oct 4th 2023 at 8:11:57 AM