Spider-Man General Discussion

I did. I acknowledge this may be going too far and too personal. It's just strange to me that the entertainment industry and in this case Marvel and DC specifically are strangely anti marriage. Like marriage makes a character "Old and unrelatable to young people" But whatever the case, perhaps pondering about a creator's personal life is too far. What sparked this conversation, was me remembering during BND Peter was drawn like Quasaeda(which is seriously egotistical) and it was him who stated that he was a Spider-Man fan back in the 80s who hated the marriage so some form of creator real life issues did play into writing.

But i'll stop pondering about real life Creator's lives. I recently got the new Superior on the mail, and will give thoughts soon.

Quesada as EIC does seem to be strangely fixated on Spider-Man over other titles, which always felt a little weird to me. Him making a cameo in the cartoon Marvel's Spider-Man was something that corporate folk at Disney/Marvel should have reined in, for attaching his brand to their mascot, which is one kind of counter-productive to having a mascot to start with, two, no editor other than Stan Lee ever cameo'd before. And while Quesada is fairly important in the EIC scheme of things, in the Spider-Man scheme of things, he wrote the two worst Spider-Man stories. If Quesada deserved to cameo then it should be in some of the good stuff he actually did do (which I can't name but I assume it exists in theory). I mean if Dan Slott cameo'd that would be fine since the cartoon does adapt stuff from his run (Max Modell as this Dumbledore character, Horizon school, Spider-Island). I mean he at least earned it for character creation, and story concepts, even if some (myself included) don't always appreciate his storytelling.

Quesada when describing his art for Spider-Man said that he always tried to draw Peter and MJ as looking older when they are together than when they are apart, to drive in the point that relationship ages them and so on. He mentioned that One More Day towards the end, he drew them looking in their '30s and '40s.

For good stuff Quesada did, he was the editor for Marvel knights which had some good books.

Also has anyone read the Spider Man series IDW is publishing? How is it?

Had Quesada not implemented OMD with Spider-Man and didn't approve of Civil War he would have been regarded as one of the best. Marvel starting to get better just as he got back into publishing to mentor Cebulski is no coincidence either.

Edited by Zarius on Dec 26th 2018 at 12:43:38 PM

He's also legitimately a fantastic artist who's won awards for it.

He's done a lot of good, he just has this bizarre Single-Issue Wonk about how Spider-Man "should" be.

We all have our eccentricities, I suppose.

The point of the matter is that if you look at the history of Marvel Comics Editors In Chief, I don't think you can say anyone has been entirely without controversy. So the fact that Quesada is divisive, controversial, and polarizing is par for the course. It's not a job made to win popularity contests, and considering that Jameson is often a stand-in for the EIC du jour, I think Spider-Man fans understand this better than others. I am not going to say that Quesada is somehow the worst EIC ever or that before there was nothing but love. That's not any rational grounds for criticism in my view.

Stan Lee is obviously the best EIC ever, laissez-faire, allowed writers and artists to put their own vision but he was also a PR man and publicity hound who alienated and drove Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko out of the company. Kirby went to DC and created the New Gods and other concepts for them. Stuff he could have made for Marvel. Ditko went to Charlton where he created the Question and Ted Kord, and then for DC he made the Creeper, and later he made Squirrel Girl for Marvel, with his eye for character creation still strong. I think their defections did hurt Marvel and ultimately also Lee himself. Sure there was recovery and replacement and new voices but there was certainly a small dip after they left. So if that's true for Lee who has the best record and nurtured the best practices, it also applies to Shooter and Quesada both of whom are far more interventionist editors which is ironic considering that Quesada is critical of Shooter.

Tom Defalco I think is pretty underrated as EIC FWIW, like Lee he was laissez-faire but if he had been more like Shooter, and stamped his foot down, he would have killed the Clone Saga in its infancy since his original instincts was that the entire idea was a trainwreck but he went on when it was popular in the writer's room and he compromised by mandating a six month event with a backdoor to undo it. Then his office was neutralized by marketing and executive you had those five new competing editors and that led to the mess. Still if Defalco had been Shooter, he'd have stamped that down then and there.

The worst EIC is generally considered to be Bob Harras IIRC.

I tend to be more sympathetic to Harras. I mean he's seen as this guy who ruined the Clone Saga thanks to Glenn Greenberg's blog but the Clone Saga was a terrible idea that should never have been thought up, approved, or put forth in the first place. That was a story that destroyed everything Spider-Man stood for. The mess of the Clone Saga was something he inherited and he tried to fix. And I actually do agree with his decisions. I mean getting rid of the baby, well the way it was done wasn't nice, but I do agree that they never should have taken Peter and MJ there to start with. They weren't ready. I am pro-Spider Marriage and Peter/MJ but at the risk of hypocrisy and sounding like Quesada who said that you shouldn't change the characters too much...the fact is that Peter and MJ as a romantic ideal, embodied the young recent married, still-in-early-throes-of-marriage couple and they weren't married for ten real time years nor had they aged much in the story for them to become parents. There hadn't been enough issues and material showing the marriage in all its facets and so on. And it was too early at that time to do it. I mean Peter got married after he grew older and in the 25th year of publication history when you had plenty of material of high school, college, and young adult and realtionship woes which was pretty played out by that point...so it made sense for him to be married then. But becoming a father at that age, or MJ becoming a mother, was too much too quick at the time. And the material in the JMS and Jenkins era of the marriage was stuff that we needed to see more of in the wake of Maximum Carnage. Getting rid of the baby did cause a huge problem since this was a huge dramatic can of worms that could only be downplayed, but I am not going to blame Harras for making the best of a terrible situation that came to him.

And yeah, I do think bringing Norman Osborn back was the correct decision. Harras was right when he pointed out that it was the simplest fix. The retcon justifying Norman's survival made a hell of a lot more sense than the clone possibly being the real Peter. It wasn't the best way Norman to come back. Like it should have been an epic classic story, but Norman coming back led to a lot of good stories and raised stakes. It's rich for Glenn Greenberg and others to complain that Harras undid a classic story when their entire rotten Clone Saga idea undid Conway's classic story and the entire point of what that was about. Of course Harras' actions during the Mackie/Byrne era, MJ's temporary death and so on...that should be criticized. Because there he's not fixing someone else's mess but making a new one all by himself. And Harras also started Thunderbolts and so on. So I'd say he's par for the course.

Question: Is Ultimate Peter Parker bisexual? His clone Jessica was attracted to women until she was randomly attracted to Johnny Storm because reasons.

If so, he himself didn't figure it out, but making out with Johnny wasn't how he would like to find out.

The clones are entirely separate people and figures. That's how Bendis wrote them. They have things in common with Peter but gradually become separate characters. I don't think Bendis intended that as reflective of anything.

I am all for LGBT Heroes and so on but see while Superman and Batman at various moments in their history can be easily interpreted/projected as having alternate identities, this is largely because both of them for most of their run were one to two dimensional characters (and even then Batman moreso than Supes, who is not really heterosexual so much as Lois-sexual), it's harder to do so for Peter Parker because he was for a long time written three-dimensionally and maintained that by way by multiple teams.

In both classical and ultimate versions, Peter Parker is probably the most heterosexual man in comics. I mean this guy loves women, loves the company of women, and is almost never "single", never has difficulty finding dates (albeit has a harder time keeping them). He had a flamboyantly sexual relationship with both MJ and Black Cat when they dated and especially with MJ during the marriage. Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man has his closest bonds and friendships be entirely with girls, MJ, Gwen, Kitty Pryde, all three of whom he has dated.

When it comes to clones in the Ultimate Universe, i think it's more of the mind is a plaything of the body when it comes to Jessica's orientation.

Okay finished the new Superior, first thing i'd like to say is bless Anna Maria Marconi, i love that she basically echoes the complaints fans have with Hero Ock, and the fact that Ock sexually assaulted her, and she was about to sic the Living Brain on him. I love they bring up the whole Doc Ock's brain was technically damaged in the accident but Anna counter proposes that all that happened was his brain rewiring itself to control extra 4 limbs, me and Jack brought up this brain damage debate a while back.

This series has more of Ock's mad scientist and super villain approach at fighting crime which to me is the main draw of the series. I do hope Gage stays the course and keeps Ock single since you know...

A solid start to an interesting series. Look i find Superior overall to be a good story but a terrible Spider-Man story if it makes sense. I appreciate the series like i do GTA or Death Note, i can appreciate Villain protagonists like Superior Spider-Man or Kira but enjoy the eventual Karma that comes after them.(For the record, i prefer the original Manga ending to the Anime one)

I think that the whole Johnny think was later revealed to be him bragging about it, but nothing really happened between them.

You also need to consider that when she met Johnny, she was still discovering herself. Up until a that point she hadn't any attraction towards any character, but she always acted awkwardly around MJ and Kitty. She didn't outright said that she was only into girls until All-New Ultimates, which came out a couple of years after that encounter with Johnny.

So I've read Ultimate Spider-Man Book 1. Here's some hot takes.

• I still think the art is ugly, but the line arts shown in the bonus feature is pretty good.
• The revised spider makes better sense this time around. Peter has super strength and super agility because the spider was injected with a replica of Captain America serum, which is a better explanation than a radiated spider. How and why the spider bit him is still stupid. I think the only Spider-Heroes who have a satisfying reason to be bitten by the spider are Maguire Parker and Peni Parker.
• Ultimate Green Goblin is a big monster now, which carries over to ITSV. This is because he overdosed on the serum or the serum just went bad. I think the same thing happened to Ultimate Bruce Banner.
• Depiction of high school is just as laughable as the classic comics. So far only Homecoming depicts high school remotely decently (ITSV doesn't focus too much on high school stuff).
• I actually like how in this version Peter was actually irresponsible after getting Spider-Power. That said, I have problem with the bystander who expects a high school kid to go out of his way and trip a man 3 times his size. He didn't know Peter had superpowers.

You're in for a treat. Ultimate Spider-Man is the foundation for the character's modern mythos.

That incidentally is something I pointed out in another forum earlier today. How little classical Spider-Man actually has to do with high school. Most of Lee-Ditko Spider-Man takes place at the Daily Bugle and doesn't deal with high school life. We pointed out that Ultimate Spider-Man has more high school centric stuff but Bendis starts getting bored quickly and then after a while basically transplants an amalgamated older Peter and MJ into teenage bodies and guise.

That's actually something that struck me too when I read it.

To be fair to the shopkeeper, he was desperate, and he does point out all Peter needed to do was trip him or stop him. If Peter did ANYTHING, it would have slowed the thief down enough for the shopkeeper to stop him. i mean there are two people vs one dude. Numbers.

The thing is in Ultimate Spider-Man, Peter is walking down a street and is unaware about what is happening. Unlike in Amazing Fantasy #15 where he is clearly shown seeing a crook chased by a cop and standing by the side while he enters an elevator and pushes a button. To be absolutely honest, in real life, I am sure I would have done the same thing as Peter in either situation. But that would be out of fear, shock, and surprise, not having powers and not having gadgets. In AF#15, Peter is established as having mastered his powers and abilities, having web-shooters, and doing acrobatic feats before this incident occurs. I mean he has web-shooters at that time. All he had to do was thwip and stop that burglar. Then and there. Just one flick of his wrist. That's it. Years of guilt and Wangst and so on, gone forever.

In USM, that isn't the case, he's still worried about his powers and he nearly got run over by a limo driver by one of Osborn's hatchet-men, and he's clearly confused. His web-shooters are invented after Uncle Ben's death. And it doesn't happen in a cramped lobby and elevator but in an open city street where presumably there should be other bystanders and cops around and so on. So the staging is not as clear cut as Lee-Ditko.

To be absolutely honest, I don't think Ultimate Peter needed Uncle Ben to die to become Spider-Man. What creates problems is his grades slipping which creates an argument with Uncle Ben and Aunt May, leading him to go and crash at Kong's house, then Uncle Ben comes, another argument as Peter goes "You're not my real Dad..." (which was imported into Spider-Man for no reason). Then he mopes, feels guilty and plans to go back and apologize and then he finds out Uncle Ben died and that it's the burglar he let go. To be honest, with everything that happened to him, I am impressed he remembered that incident. Lee-Ditko Peter was on his way to becoming a celebrity hack performer only interested in himself and his family when tragedy takes away the person he was doing his best to pay back, honor, and help. In USM, Peter was a normal basically good teenager, who gets in a typical argument with his Dad, and when he tries to fixes things finds out it's too late and he has Parting-Words Regret. I mean psychologically, there's not a lot of reasons why Peter's inaction led to "With Great Power..." It feels forced in and branded.

I found some interesting stuff from two of the Post- Brand New Day. One of them is a comment by Slott, whose lede was buried in that big series of "marriage isn't coming back" posts. The first is Marc Guggenheim from Gvezdon/Guggenheim's podcast:

So that's Slott outright admitting that this was a commercial assignment and that it's not his decision and he would have written Spider-Man had he been married and so on. Which is interesting. This was 2017 last year, and like I said it got buried amidst all the other posts he wrote at CBR (which honestly he shouldn't have done, for his sake and everyone else's).

Guggenheim was responding to Peter and MJ getting back together in Nick Spencer's story. He says that if they get married again, he'd be okay with it. He points out that it's cyclical and so on, and notes that most of the stuff he wrote in Brand New Day didn't last. This was in September 2018.

I don't think Guggenheim knows Marvel well to say that it could happen but who knows?

I can never really tell what Dan Slott really believes in these days. It's never simple with him for better or for worse.

It's been a while since i read Ultimate so i re-read the issue with that, and Peter did unintentionally distract him by being in his way but nonchalantly lets him go. I agree it's a weaker scene than the original, but i still feel it stands, since Peter was already kicking ass before in the wrestler arena, and could have easily stopped him. Also on that with great responsibility mantra being remembered, Uncle Ben did pull the your Dad used to say that, so Peter has reason to remember it.

Also funny you should call Spider-Man on his way to be a celebrity hack performer, i FINALLY got to reading what-If Spider-Man stopped the burglar? and man, is Spider-Man a hack there. Is it strange i can only imagine Yuri Lowenthial's voice for that Spidey?

Edited by RedHunter543 on Dec 28th 2018 at 12:51:02 PM

So over in the newspaper strip, Luke has been released from Killgrave's control, but now Spidey is finally in his power. Jameson best be ready for the ultimate christmas present, Spidey as a genuine, if unwilling, menace!

Edited by Zarius on Dec 28th 2018 at 12:56:55 PM

Is there a code for people who commit crimes under mind control? Pretty sure Spider-Man did some crimes under mind control a couple of times.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Dec 28th 2018 at 6:30:19 AM

The big one was in the Lee-Romita era where Spider-Man got mind-controlled by Dr. Octopus (and do not bring Slott and go all "ah...") and then in the Brainwasher arc. But doing crimes under mind control is more a problem for Superman unfortunately because that shows up again, and again, and again...to the point that "evil Superman" has become just as familiar as the good one, and that's damaged his brand in a big way thanks to the Injustice games and the Zack Snyder movies (where yeah Superman is "technically good" but more time is spent to showing him destroy stuff, kill enemies, dystopian projections and fears, and then in Justice League, his best scene is him going postal after waking up and tearing the League up all by himself). In the case of Spider-Man, his problem is doppelgangers and so on...So his defense can always be, "that wasn't me, that was some other guy dressed as me while I was kidnapped/distracted/imprisoned/mentally suppressed somewhere".

The nearest thing in real-life to mind-control is the Patty Hearst incident or Stockholm Syndrome, or being part of a cult. But even then the Manson Family people weren't given a pass or so on.

Technically the Mind-Control by Doc Ock was more of the amnesia variety. Now that you mentioned the Brainwasher arc, i'm pretty sure the Kingpin was behind it right? And it had the now unthinkable scenario where Gwen hates Peter for seemingly hurting her dad but admiring Spider-Man for saving her and her dad. Hindsight is always more tragic and funny in times like these. Also it had Norman Osborn helping out George Stacy. Now i know Jack points out this is now out-of-Character but it is amnesiac Norman so i buy it.

and speaking of mind-control crimes, is Spider-Man still being blamed for what Doc Ock did in Superior? I recall Jameson not believing it(which is standard Jameson) and Black Cat going mob boss over it. i'm just put off by how blase Spider-Man is over the situation, I feel he should be more pissed no one and i mean NO-ONE realized anything was off about the fact Spider-Man started talking like a middle-aged scientist and started using super villain tactics to fight crime. I remember during Superior, ghost Peter was utterly flabbergasted during the Avenger's intervention, that it took so long for people to start suspecting, but now he's pretty chill about the situation.

Is it just me or is the entire superhero community pretty terrible when dealing with Spider-Man? there are a lot of times when they act either really stupid or really cruel to him, like civil war, One more day(where the ENTIRE marvel verse can do jack about a bullet wound) Superior(nuff said) the time when the avengers were pissy that Spider-Man got praise from mayor Kingpin despite it clearly being a plot.