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    Peach's marriage 

  • So... Is Peach still married to Bowser? I don't recall them getting a divorce or annulment from the end of the game.
    • I doubt that the wedding would be considered legitimate, even by Mario-verse standards. Both the bride and groom were kidnapped, physical force was administered to get both parties to agree to the vows, and I sincerely doubt that Count Bleck is a minister.
    • But the wedding was legitimate enough to bring about the apocalypse. Doesn't that count for anything?
    • Only on Tv Tropes do you find this kind of sentence, ladies and gentlemen.
    • The prophecy called for the two of them to say vows, but that doesn't mean that the vows were legitimate.
    • They aren't married anymore because it was "until our games be over", the video game equivalent of "til death do us part". Dimentio did kinda sorta kill them, which, although it didn't stick, is still probably enough to mean the marriage certificate is now expired.
    • And the game DID end. When you beat it.
    • But according to Queen Jaydes, Mario and company weren't dead/Game Overed when they arrived in the Underwhere. That's why she was able to send them back. Dimentio sent them to the afterlife without killing them. Besides, Bleck did ask them whether they took the other as their "Lawfully wedded wife/husband". Bleck was also a count, not a minister. As a count, he probably has legal authority within his county. It isn't impossible for a king, a duke, an earl, a count, or even the captain of a ship to marry people, so long as the wedding takes place within their jurisdiction.
      • Isn't the captains-can-minister thing an urban legend?
    • So Peach uses her royal authority to declare the marriage null and void. Most cultures really don't consider a marriage unbreakable before they're consummated, which Peach and Bower didn't do. At least, I hope they didn't.
    • At the very least, no one really considers it legitimate except Bowser (even Peach called it a sham. And she has a point because she was hypnotized into saying "I do" which isn't consensual under ANY circumstances). And the only reason he considers it legitimate is because he has a Villainous Crush on Peach.
    • We can all agree that Bowser x Peach will never happen. Blumiere and Timpani on the other hand was legitimate, and it stopped whatever Dimentio left behind.
    • Come the events of Odyssey, and Bowser intends on giving Peach a formal wedding ceremony- clearly, even he no longer believes the old one was legitimate enough. Though it does bear mentioning that the wedding bells and the ring exchange normally occur after the vows...

    Mario and Luigi in the Underwhere 

  • After replaying the game again, something struck me at the minus wor- I mean, then Underwhere. It's obvious that this and the Overthere are basic the heaven and hell of the Mario-verse. So it makes sense that the Peach is found in the Overthere and that Bowser needs his own damn room that has to be locked in the Underwhere. But why are Mario and Luigi - who have done numerous heroic deeds - sent to the Underwhere?
    • Don't forget Mario was the villain in Donkey Kong Jr. and Luigi "died" as Mr. L, a villain. Peach is pure enough to go to the Overthere without being judged. Mario and Luigi would probably be allowed in the Overthere as well after being judged. Also, Mario had the Pure Heart and assuming Grambi can't bring people or objects back to life, Jaydes was the only way the bros and the Pure Heart could return. From a gameplay standpoint, the Underwhere is easier to navigate and the developers didn't want us exploring the Overthere yet.
      • Also, I believe it's mentioned (or was it implied?) that the Underwhere is more of a waiting room, and there's hell below it. Mario & Luigi needed to be judged, Peach was fine, and Bowser... well, he was only locked in the Underwhere Road because the D-Men couldn't do a thing about him. I doubt they're sending him where Bonechill lived.
      • If they sent him where Bonechill lived, he'd be a frozen lizard.
      • The answer to this is the reason why there's a trope called Video Game Cruelty Potential - Mario and Luigi may be heroes by name, but they are still known for doing less than heroic things both while under and outside the player's control, like stealing things from NPCs, killing Whackas, and so forth. Whereas Princess Peach is a pure and innocent maiden within the series continuity who only uses force when the well-being of the greater good is at stake.
      • The Underwhere was more along the lines of Hades, in that nearly everyone seemingly goes there when they die, with the especially noble instead being sent to the Overthere (the Elysian Fields) and the especially bad instead being sent to Bonechill's domain (Tartarus) either right away or after they submit to being judged by Jaydes.
      • Also, what a lot of people don't remember about this part of the game is that none of the heroes actually died when Dimentio "attacked" them. He feigned an instant-KO attack because he needed them to get help from Queen Jaydes to restore the Pure Heart from Sammer's Kingdom, and the only way to do that without arousing Count Bleck's suspicions was by making it look like he'd killed them, when all he did in reality was cast a "teleport to the aftergame" spell. So he dumped the four of them off in the places where their abilities would be required to proceed, just to ensure none of them were missed — Mario had the Pure Heart to give to Jaydes, he needed Luigi's help in order to find Luvbi, they needed Bowser's fire breath to light their way along Underwhere Road, and Peach was needed to make it into the Overthere.


  • Okay, so hurtling through space via cannon, then spending time walking on the moon is no problem, but if you're going to bob gently though space, you need a fishbowl at minimum. ...Huh?
    • Negative Continuity.
    • Batman Can Breathe in Space when he damn well needs to.
    • Maybe there's air on the moon. I know OUR moon doesn't have any real atmosphere but that doesn't mean this moon can't have enough air to support a portly plumber for an hour.
    • It might be that the Crystal Stars allowed Mario to breathe in space...
    • Personally, I always thought that Mario-verse physics worked sort of like gravity does in the Looney Tunes world (where it doesn't take effect until someone notices it). Remember, in the opening to Chapter 4, Mario/Peach/Bowser don't react at all until Tippi points out that they're in space, at which point they go "!" and start flailing their arms around. It's very possible that Mario/Peach/Bowser/Luigi don't actually need to breathe, but think they do, and will panic if they realize they aren't. Remember, none of them have any trouble breathing underwater in this game, either, and if the Galaxy games are anything to go by, space wouldn't give them difficulties either. I always figured that the fishbowl resolved their problem largely because they were convinced it would, and since they didn't have any real problem in the first place, it worked just fine.
    • Just a minor note, but in the Galaxy games, Mario/Luigi has a magical star child hiding beneath his hat who gives him the power to perform a spinning maneuver and fly through space like a comet. I always assumed Luma just granted him the power to breath outside the atmospheres of the various planets he visited.
    • For that matter, don't forget that the various levels in SPM and the moon in TTYD all take place in different dimensions. The laws of physics could differ wildly between them.
    • If you use Goombella to tattle the very first room in the X-Naut Fortress (the Escalator room) she lampshades it.
    • "Who knew there'd be such a weird building on the moon... It's kind of crazy, actually. I mean, it's got a big glass dome to keep all of the air from leaking out......What's that? Yeah, now that you mention it, I guess we were OK out there with no air to breathe......... Yeah I'd rather not think about that too much, I guess. Yeah, let's change the subject." were her exact words.
    • I could've sworn I once read something that pinned Mario's ability to breath on the Moon as being due to the Crystal Stars. I can't find it anywhere now, but it would make sense - they were said to contain "the power of the stars" or something like that.

    Count Bleck and the betrayal 

  • One thing that has always confused me is how Count Bleck didn't see Dimentio's betrayal coming. It's stated that The Dark Prognosticus can see the end of wars that were fought over it... So we can either assume he was stark, raving mad or just didn't care. But his surprise at the end of the game seems to refute this.
    • Because the Book wants the End Of The World and Dimento's betrayal helps ensure it will happen after Bleck's defeat. So it doesn't put it out until needed.
    • Also, Dimentio apparently wrote the damn book in the first place. Obviously, he'd edit himself out.
    • I don't believe the Dark Prognosticus actually goes into that much detail with regards to personal identity - for example, it refers only to a "man in red" (Mario) and a "man in green" (Luigi) who will have to stand against each other, while neglecting to mention their names. I believe I remember learning somewhere that the book only stated that a "dark one" would be the one to destroy all worlds, without giving any specifics; Count Bleck was just so heartbroken that he assumed that the "dark one" was him and went along with it, even though it turned out to be Dimentio.

    The ending 

  • At the end of the game (huge spoilers ahead, obviously), Bleck and Tippi renew their vows and from out of nowhere make new Pure Hearts or draw the existing set directly to their location. According to Bleck, all that was necessary for this to happen was mutual love between two people. So does this mean none of the 4 heroes form a pair which mutually loves each other, obvious brotherly love between the Mario Bros. aside? If so, is there really no romance between Mario and Peach (and for those fans, Peach and Bowser)?
    • None of the party members declared their love for each other. Bleck and Tippi did. It probably didn't have to feature the saying of vows, but a statement of love, and the acceptance of the love of the other party was likely necessary.
    • And also, Peach and Bowser kinda broke the world in the first place. Obviously, the smartest thing to do to fix something is to hit it with the same thing you broke it with.
    • I think it may have had something to do with the devotion Blumiere and Timpani had toward each other. Think about it - he loved her so much, all of the worlds meant nothing to him without her in them... Granted, his remedy of trying to destroy them all isn't a good thing on its own, but it shows that life didn't matter to him without Timpani. If, say, something happened to Luigi, Mario would mourn for him, sure, and would probably be depressed about it for a little bit, but he would (hopefully) eventually learn that it's best for him to move on, to learn to love life as much as he loved his brother.

    Nastasia and the betrayal 

  • At the end of the game, the Hand Wave for how Mimi and O'Chunks knew where to find Count Bleck is that Nastasia told them beforehand that she expected they'd end up there... so wait. This would mean that Nastasia knew (at least enough to accurately predict) that Dimentio was going to betray them and bring about the end of all worlds himself. ...So why didn't she DO anything about this herself? Her ONLY known power is the ability to hypnotize people into following her orders absolutely, and even if for some reason she couldn't do this, she could surely tell someone what was about to happen. The bigger problem here, however, is how she knew this to begin with. As far as I can tell, this is never answered or explained.
    • Dimentio did blab his whole plan to Mario. Nastasia could have overheard it, but that begs the question of why she didn't tell it to Bleck. Not only is she incredibly loyal to Bleck but the game made it very clear that Nastasia has feelings for Bleck, so why not inform him of impending treachery? The best answer is she believed that not even the heroes in cahoots with Dimentio could stop Bleck and so gave it no thought. Bleck WAS invincible during the fight until the Pure Hearts intervened so maybe she just thought to herself "Let them try, they will fail since Bleck is invincible." Not a great explanation but still.
    • O'Chunks says something like "She knew you'd come here, or rather she FELT you'd come here." I always assumed we were meant to take it the same as things like Tippi knowing that Mario was at the top of the tower after returning from the Underwhere, or when Mario felt that his friends were ok after falling in the halls of Castle Bleck - unexplained hunches/feelings that turn out to be true. True, the other examples are a little easier to justify, but I figured it was meant to fall within the same line of thought.
    • Considering that Nastasia seems to have been the only resident of Castle Bleck who was both intelligent and relatively sane, I think that it's reasonable to assume that she would be the first of the minions to suspect Dimentio's true motives. Because Bleck was not in the best mental state at this time, she may have deliberately avoided being the one to warn him directly for fear of invoking a Cassandra Truth plot with her crush.
    • Maybe it went something like this... When she left Count Bleck to face Mario alone, she decided to go looking for his other minions. She comes across O'Chunks and Mimi, who she learns are alive and well thanks to help and sacrifices from Bowser and Princess Peach, but she can't find Dimentio anywhere, even though she knows he was supposed to dispose of Luigi and Luigi is still alive, as well. Sensing something bad is about to happen, she decides to go and be with the count so she'll be there to help in case it does, and she tells O'Chunks and Mimi that if she doesn't come back alive within a certain amount of time, it means Dimentio has taken over and that they should check for her in Dimension D. Perhaps it went something akin to that.

    Transformed Pure Heart 

  • Luvbi got turned into a Pure Heart and was then put into the Heart Pillar to allow access to Castle Bleck, right? If so, then what explains her presence in the Overthere after defeating Super Dimentio?
    • The Power of Love? After all, she is the ambiguously angel-like daughter of the rulers of pseudo-Heaven and Underworld, both of whom no doubt would do anything in their power to bring her back if they could, and at heart is an incredibly magical MacGuffin. Something in there must have contributed to it.
    • If you talk to her afterwards, she says something about not remembering how she was brought back.
    • If there were a real, in-game reason why she was able to be brought back, I don't think her sacrifice would've seemed like such a big deal had her parents known such a loophole existed. I think it was just that no one could've foreseen such a sacrificial act of love as begin nessecary to stop the Chaos Heart - they all believed the heroes would be able to defeat Count Bleck and stop the Void with time to spare. Thus, Blumiere and Timpani's exchanging of vows and the subsequent burst of power they gave to the Pure Hearts was the one event that no one saw coming, yet it may have been what actually brought Luvbi back.
    • I see it as in the end, things were brought back the way they used to be before the marriage (except for the memories that are still there). Which means Peach and Bowser aren't married, Sammer's Kingdom is restored, and the crack is gone. And it's likely Bleck or even Dimentio looked for the Pure Hearts to stall the hero, but they couldn't find them, therefore Luvbi came back.
      • No, that can't be it; if it was, Squirps would still be inside his hibernation capsule during the epilogue. It has to be taking place after the events of the game, and Luvbi coming back was just due to The Power of Love.

    Captain Gills 

  • You can take Captain Gills and set him free in the canal underneath Flipside and whenever you return to that area, he gets bigger and there are bones in the canal. What's the deal? It also overlaps with Fridge Horror.
    • A possible rival for his (unseen) love's affections?
    • Fish need to eat, too, you know.
    • Maybe he ate Grodus's pets from the previous game.
      • From in between dimensions?

    Cragnon's kingdom 

  • At the end of the game, we see the land of the Cragnons get reconstructed, despite it never getting explicitly destroyed in the first place. Meanwhile, Sammer's Kingdom, which was definitely destroyed, is never shown being recreated. Did the two worlds get their roles switched at some point in development?
    • I'm pretty sure you do see Sammer's Kingdom being restored at some point during the ending, and it was during the final battle that the Land of the Cragnons was shown being destroyed.
    • If you try to go back to Sammer's Kingdom before the endgame, it will boot you to the World of Nothing.

    Purity Heart and Squirps 

  • How come the power of the Purity Heart reforming all worlds was able bring Luvbi back into existence, yet can't do anything for Squirps? Like sending him back to when his mother was alive, or bringing her back to life in the present time, or reforming some of his kingdom, or...something? He's all alone in outer space... If you ask me, that's almost as bad as what Luvbi went through.
    • Luvbi was only able to be brought back because she's a Pure Heart. There's nothing in the game to indicate that the Pure Hearts can be used for time travel or bringing back people who have been dead for centuries.
    • What about Blumiere and Timpani? Count Bleck himself said that using their vows to destroy the Chaos Heart would cause them to disappear, yet after the end credits, they both appear to be fine. The Purity Heart even managed to restore Tippi to her normal form.
    • Yes, disappear is the key word here. That doesn't mean necessarily mean that they died. It probably means that they got transported to another world. In fact, Count Bleck's minions believe that he's still alive and well along with Tippi.
    • Wherever they are, it's far beyond the lands of Flip and Flopside.

    Weapons and Bowser's Castle 

  • Why don't the Mario Bros. bring any weapons with them when they go to Bowser's Castle in order to confront him and rescue Peach? Disregarding the fact that (for once) she's not really there, neither of them seem to have their own hammers when you play as them later, and when you first encounter Bowser in battle during Chapter 3, you can't jump on him since he has spikes and using Pixls is the only way to damage him. What exactly was their plan, to just go inside and ask him nicely to return the princess?
    • They don't bring weapons because Bowser was like a Saturday-morning cartoon villain. One jump to the noggin and he was down. This all changed in Galaxy though.
    • I'm not sure what you're talking about...In this game as well as the last one, Bowser requires the Spike Shield badge or Carrie's Pixl powers in order to be jumped on, and Mario and Luigi don't have any hammers when you start the game as them, so I'm wondering how they were planning on damaging Bowser at all.
    • You might as well ask why Mario downgraded to the basic Hammer and Boots before setting out on what promised to be an adventure in TTYD. ...Actually, why did he do that?

    Attacking Bowser 

  • Why do the Koopas and the like in the Bitlands continue to attack you when you have Bowser in your party? Given we're shown how loyal they are to their king, shouldn't they still be subservient to him?
    • Retroactive backtracking. You play the levels as they were, only this time there's no Bowser boss. Same thing happens in the Underwhere Road.
    • Well, that can't be the case, because if you play back through the chapters after clearing the game, Squirps is still mourning his mother in the Whoa Zone, Castle Bleck is completely intact, and both Luvbi and King Croacus have come back to life. Yet the Koopas in the Bitlands will still go as far as attacking Bowser directly. I'd say it's possible they were mind-controlled by Nastasia, but again, they still do it after the end of the game, where Nastasia pretty much becomes one of the good guys.

    Blumiere's father and Timpani 

  • What did Blumiere's father do to Timpani, exactly? Everywhere I look simply suggests that he just cursed her to wander through dimensions until she grew exhausted and died...but I haven't really found anything in the game to back this up. Even if it were true, however, this also begs the question of why no one ever helped her before she appeared in Flipside and was taken in by Merlon?
    • I haven't played the game in awhile, but that's exactly what happened to Timpani according to As for why no one helped her, unfortunately, it's Truth in Television; people have a tendency to ignore those who are in danger.
    • Maybe...but that seems odd, though, seeing as we hear her telling Blumiere, in flashback, that "anyone with a heart would not ignore an injured soul", and she later argues against Count Bleck's plan by insisting that all beings in the world have a heart...It seems quite odd that she would say that after wandering the worlds to the point of death yet finding no one who stopped her and helped her...
    • Maybe she was reminded of the time Merlon helped her and that's what she meant by "anyone with a heart". Or maybe it was a translation error, I don't know.
    • We know that Merlon and his clan far exceed the events of Paper Mario, so it's possible he knew Timpani from a different land in is youth.
    • It's also possible that Timpani was cursed to wander the third dimension in particular. Think about it. When Red was trapped in 3D, he says that he was hollering and screaming for help for days before you rescue him, and no one even noticed. Perhaps Timpani tried to seek help from the residents of the worlds that she wandered, but no one could see or hear her. Meanwhile, Merlon, a powerful descendant of the Ancients who likely can see past dimensions, was able to find and rescue her while she was on the brink of death.

    Cragnons and Floro Sapiens 

  • In Chapter 5, the Cragnons are harming Floro Sapiens by throwing garbage into the river and polluting their water supply, thus driving King Croacus, a normally caring ruler who seeks to add beauty to the world, into insanity. The Floro Sapiens' solution to not to simply tell the Cragnons about how what they're doing is harming them, but rather try kidnapping them and forcing them to work in the mines, therefore driving up tensions between the two groups even more. How is this supposed to be a logical solution to their problems?
    • Maybe the Floro Sapians thought that the Cragnons wouldn't listen if they just told them what happened to King Croacus, so they thought force would be the better option. And people tend to not think rationally when they're worrying over someone, especially if they're either suffering from a mental illness or dying.
    • Yes, but...even stranger is that King Croacus seems to be the one ordering for the kidnappings, and throughout the chapter, none of the Floro Sapiens ever hint at the pollution being the root of their problem or that they feel that they're nabbing Cragnons for a good cause.
    • King Croacus was driven insane by the polluted water, so it's not surprising that he was the one to order the kidnappings. Maybe the chapter's ending was a Green Aesop someone tacked on at the last minute during development when they realized they had flower people as the bad guys.
    • Cragnons as a whole were dumb. They didn't know any better other than that as told by Flint Cragley. In other words, if it weren't for Flint, the Cragnons and Floro Sapiens would still be at odds.
    • Um, Flint Cragley was a fake. A know-nothing know-it-all, something like Flavio. He didn't know more than any of the other Cragons that what they were doing was polluting the Floro Sapiens' drinking water - to say that he alone figured out a solution and passed it on to all of them is a bit insulting to the Heroes of Light.
      • Flint Cragley, being a trusted television crag-lebrity, got the Cragnons to stop throwing garbage in the water by spreading the world about enviromental friendliness through his show.

     A shadow of his power 

  • Did anyone else feel that the explanation for the Chaos Heart continuing to exist even after Dimentio's defeat came right out of left field? The way Count Bleck explains it seems incredibly vague as to what exactly this "shadow of power" is or how it works...It seems like a bit of a deus ex machina, if that would be the correct term. Why couldn't it just have been because Luigi was still alive or due to the Chaos Heart absorbing enough power through the fusion to continue existing on its own, or...something that's at least vaguely been hinted at before this point?
    • It's probably an odd way of saying "He cast a spell to keep the Chaos Heart's momentum going, and that spell didn't vanish when he died." Most gamers will say that projectiles have a habit of not going away when the caster is killed, leading to an unlucky blow.
    • For example, even if one of the Shadow Sirens dies, their effects still hold for their duration, including the minimal chance status.
    • But the game said that the Chaos Heart would die with the person who wielded it - that's why Mario and co. spend all that time going after the Pure Hearts, would contradict the idea that the heart behaves similarly to a spell cast by the one who controls it.

     Bleck's motives 

  • Why do many people think Count Bleck did want to utterly destroy all worlds and keep them in ruin, as opposed to creating a newer, perfect one like he'd promised his minions? Really. The only person in-game to even suggest that this is the Dimentio. A psychotic jester who has all the reason to try and turn the heroes against the count and is himself trying to destroy all worlds just to create a new one that he himself can rule over. Why would anyone think they could trust anything he says?
    • I think Bleck wanted to recreate everything at first; but when he finally met Tippi and realized she was actually Timpani, he invoked Heel Realization and decided on Suicide by Cop instead.
    • The idea was, after he found out Timpani was still alive and wanting the world to continue so that she could continue, he knew that he had to project himself as an inhumane monster with no qualms with destroying all of existence if given the chance, so that she wouldn't hesitate or have much of a choice when it came time for the heroes to defeat him. So, yes, in a way, he was attempting a sort of Suicide by Cop - during the final battle, he repeatedly tries to belittle Mario presumably as a way of pushing and motivating him to keep fighting ("Is that all the heroism you can muster?", "You have failed!", and so forth), and you can see that he's happy when he sees the four heroes reunite. But the point is, he was pretending in the end to want to destroy all worlds and keep them that way - he didn't really want it that way then or ever.

     Illegally binding marriage 

  • Could Peach and Bowser's wedding really count as valid or binding when the bride was literally forced into saying "I do"? The Chaos Heart is what's basically a massive reality-warper, but it can't tell that the marriage used to summon it was just a big fake?
    • The Chaos Heart seems to work the same way as the Crystal Stars from Thousand-Year Door; it's a very powerful object but it's not sentient at all, therefore it probably can't tell the difference between a forced marriage and a legitimate marriage.
    • Considering that Blumiere and Timpani's geniune vows brought forth the Pure Hearts, it's possible the fact that it was invalid was the reason that it worked to summon the Chaos Heart in the first place.

     The Tribe of Darkness 

  • So the end of Super Paper Mario comes, all worlds are restored to life, and the Void disappears for good...All is well, it seems. But what ultimately becomes of Blumiere's father and his other tribesmen? We're never explicitly shown what Blumiere did to them when he stole the Dark Prognosticus, but one can only assume that the dimension was most likely destroyed. Given this was before the Chaos Heart was formed and thus, was not caused by it, would its destruction by the Purity Heart have been able to bring the world back?
    • I assume the world and its people were restored, just like the Sammer Kingdom. It seemed like all of the destruction that Count Bleck caused during his role in the Dark Prognosticus, Chaos Heart or not, was undone when the Chaos Heart was destroyed, and I assume that includes his original world. Blumiere's father probably had to find someone else to carry on the family legacy though since I doubt Blumiere had any intention to go back after what they did to Timpani.
    • Honestly it's probably Fridge Horror I always assumed they were just straight up murdered and they're dead for good

     Pure Heart Protection 

  • Why did Grambi decide to protect his Pure Heart, by turning it into a living thing? Did the Ancients not tell him that it would have to be taken and used by the heroes someday? Squirpina, the Cragnons, and even King Sammer knew about that, so why did Grambi decide to award sentience to the Pure Heart when he knew it would cause Luvbi a lot of emotional torment when she had to be changed back?
    • It was a good tactic to hide the Pure Heart... he just (intentionally or unintentionally) didn't consider the ethics of it.
    • Yes, that was my point. It seems unlikely that the Ancients wouldn't tell him about the Chaos Heart, so why didn't he consider the ethics of it? I believe it's clear that he came to care about Luvbi in the end, so...
     Blumiere's Noodle Incident 
  • In Tippi's first flashback, it's revealed that she met Blumiere when she found him lying at the base of a cliff, badly injured, and nursed him back to health. But the game never explains what he was doing there...Did he jump off the cliff himself, or was he pushed by someone? If it's the former, why, and if the latter, by who?

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