Discussion YMMV / FireEmblemHeroes

I don't think so. Creator's Pet requires in-universe Character Shilling, and Y!Tiki is very popular in Japan anyways, making it a case of Americans Hate Tingle.

You have a point, until someone else suggests a better trope, I'll stick with Americans Hate Tingle for now.

I agree with Americans Hate Tingle for this, because the Young Tiki favouritism is kind of nonsense. Every year she's had some alt, and even in the one year where her adult self finally gets something over her (namely being one of the Choose Your Legends winners), one, she's wearing her younger self's outfit anyway, and two, we got Ascended Young Tiki anyway which is like a Brave Young Tiki in all but name, even performing some of the same combat gimmicks of de-charging Specials.

It just feels like adult Tiki can never catch a break, and that the devs would much rather have you like young Tiki instead.

What examples are you meaning specifically?

I'm assuming you mean Breather Level and I agree it should be moved.

So should Nightmare Fuel.

Micaiah was not "the worst protagonist". She scored high in CYL 1 and that was before she was added to the game. Also Corrin being the "second/first" most hated is baseless as well.

No objection to moving.

From what I've seen at the very least, reception has been universally negative so far (though even if it doesn't boil over now, it will soon enough once the hero fest is over - mythical heroes will be much harder to snipe in the future since they'll only reappear on legendary banners, making them even more of a money sink than they already are). Doesn't help that it's impossible to reach T21 without them. Compared to Ayra it seems more like a slow burn, though the fuel is there.

Depends. Is it possible to have a civil discussion regarding these characters? If not, they don't qualify.

No, because Broken Base is about long-term, sustained conflicts. Knee-jerk reactions don't count.

Having had some time to mull over it, I'm wondering if it should be taken a step further and give Surtr an entry as The Scrappy.

He's a Flat Character, Hate Sink and Jerkass all in one package, showing up to wreak havoc and be invincible up until he isn't. He's a villain for villain's sake, which is well and good for things like 90's kids shows and parodies, but not when the story has a more serious tone and places a large focus on the characters and their interactions. Many fans think the story takes a sharp drop in quality any time he shows up, and I'm inclined to agree with them.

Same here. I'm confused as to why he was removed as a scrappy. I've seen some ppl on Reddit compare him unfavorably to Garon, causing the latter to be Vindicated by History (even he had more depth). At best, he's hard to take seriously for obvious reasons

The trope is Memetic Loser. Are people making jokes about it?

People make a decent amount of jokes about Binding Blade not getting any new banners, but I don't know if that makes it fall under the "loser" category...

Not helping it's case is that there are actually rewards on those maps as well, such as an orb on the 7th and 500 feathers on the 8th. The first four maps, I'm alright in, but the maps after I needed specific units to kill and defend just to get enough score.

While initially I was slightly biased against Rival Domains, it grew on me as something I can just do without any hard thinking to complete. This on the other hand... As of this writing I'm stuck on the 7th, after getting stuck with Trial-and-Error Gameplay on the 6th for an hour.

I'm pretty sure that trope is just for characters, so no, it wouldn't qualify. Something more like That One Sidequest or Scrappy Mechanic would work better.

The only reason I'd suggest Replacement Scrappy is because it replaced the Rival Domains mode, and we're stuck with it for... two weeks at a time. That One Sidequest probably would be fitting too though.

I'd personally go with That One Sidequest. I feel It's Hard, So It Sucks! is more suited to an entire game being unfairly difficult, whereas Abyssal difficulty is a self-contained thing and entirely optional.

(Fixing the link due to this broken site update. https://youtu.be/H7Keqb1lrp4?t=35s)

Maybe. I’ve seen stuff like that on Tumblr

I say wait until his CYL variant is revealed. If it's yet another axe-armor then we should add it.

Thankfully, Brave Hector is a Lance Armor. Still a DC armor, but a lance armor nonetheless.

Considering there's an Unexpected Banner on the list, there is precedent.

Now, whether it should be counted is another matter.

Right, that's why I wanted to bring this to discussion and wanted some more opinions on the topic.

I'd personally want to count it. After the release of the new Brides and seeing a Voting Gauntlet in the schedule, I couldn't have been the only one who thought "hmm, maybe there'll be another seasonal Voting Gauntlet of old vs. new Brides", especially after the old Bride banner returned, although admittedly I did find it strange that its return is lasting until the end of the new Brides rather than being a much shorter time frame like the old spring banner a while back (which only returned to coincide with its Voting Gauntlet).

The only reason I wanna say no is because that section needs some cleanup, its gonna get out of hand if every banner is an Unexpected Character.

Well, I mean it's not every new banner. If they pull the same thing again with a new dancer banner for example there will be precedent and thus not unexpected. We can still clean up the entry though.

Unfortunate Implications would be a guarantee with Values Dissonance in the entry (especially so with her Japanese title being "Bridal Apostle" as opposed with "Apostle in White"), but Base-Breaking Character and Internet Backdraft would be too early to call.

I'm iffy on Values Dissonance, especially since she's still below the colloquial age of consent in Japan even ignoring the cultural surroundings that make saying "Japan's age of consent is 13" misleading.

Definitely Unfortunate Implications, and while we have to wait I think we should just make a Broken Base entry for the banner as a whole

Now that I thought about it for a while, the Values Dissonance would be too much, even with medieval standards for marrying royals in mind, but Unfortunate Implications is enough to cover Bridal Sanaki (even that name is enough to give a bad implication). We should also mention that the localization team doing their efforts to it tone down in the entry as well.

We should do a placeholder for the entry until the release of the banner, since the exact extent of her in a bridal gown is not clear until we get the quotes from her and see if she's just a flower girl or a bride, especially in the Japanese version.

The tentative entry was added with a note saying that we should wait until her full quote list is released. Her quote for the trailer was "This is just for the festival. Don't get any weird ideas." Will we need to do anything?

...The full quote list being all of Sanaki's quotes, and preferably her paralogue ones too, in both English and Japanese. That's her summon quote, her five castle quotes, her eight tap quotes, her 5* 40 dialogue. We want an idea as to how she is being portrayed in both regions before we go any further than what I have written.

Just an FYI: UI also requires a citation from a reliable source. So we shouldn't add it unless we have such a citation.

Not to defend or anything, but her Japanese title is not "Bridal Apostle", but rather "Apostle with the appearance of a bride". If you check back you'll see that there's a kanji character at the end that doesn't appear on either Tharja or Ninian's epithets, and that character means "appearance/looks like". Considering "in white" is a common way to refer to a bride I feel like the localisation team didn't really help this case.

It's hard for me to defend the decision for this Sanaki, especially when it's either extremely easily misconstrued or... well, simply bad.

However... ultimately, yes, Unfortunate Implications need citations. Would angry fan reactions from Twitter or Reddit even be enough to count? What would count as legitimate citations?

I would think reviews's opinions(even on Youtube), gaming websites posts, or official posts on FE fansites such as Serenes Forest would count as legitimate citations, but so far nothing yet due to the release of the banner not out yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GECl6ARKX9U

Stumbled across this. If this isn't legitimate enough, what exactly is it I'm looking for in 'more legit'?

I'm not sure how many posts you would need to cite if they're from social media, but considering how Reddit's FE subs were blowing up from this controversy (FEH proper started out being against it, but right now the support side is getting the most upvotes b/c "she's fictional/the dress isn't sexualized/it's not that big of a deal", while the general FE sub seems to be neutral-leaning-against, while the shitpost sub is majorly against it). Twitter heavily depends on who you follow (I've heard the JP fandom is more upset over Tharja than Sanaki, but don't quote me on that), while Tumblr is mostly against it. How do you cite entire social media platforms? Should we just pick and choose a couple of examples and link them?

I read some of the lines from the datamine and while some say she was dressed up for the festival, some of them also say as if she's calling herself as a bride, not to mention that in her confession implies that she has developed feelings for the summoner, so that is a bigger can of worms.

Alright, so... The quotes (at least from the story map I'm playing) seem to have given me the impression that buys into the whole "a kid playing dress up" kinda thing, like she wanted to seem more mature. Her description even mentions her curiosity for the festival. Plus her confession quote, from what I've seen from the datamine as well, I think mentioned how since she's an empress and all, she's likely not gonna choose her love, political marriages and all, but that she'd want to choose who to love just like a normal person.

For reference, here's Sanaki's quote:

Sanaki : I am the 37th Empress of Begnion. It is for this purpose I was born and to this end I was raised. I am different from the common person... So my wedding, too, will be different from the common person's. My groom will not be chosen based upon feelings alone. However, I think my desire to be with someone I love... Is the same as any other person's... Spending this time with you has allowed me to realize this. And someday, when I, too... H-hey, you better not tell anyone I'm telling you all this! This is our secret, got it?! *ahem* Understood?

I'm not exactly sure where the "developing feelings for the summoner" part comes from unless I interpreted that differently. Is it how spending time with the summoner helped her realize what love is? I don't know, I just saw that as her thanking the summoner for somehow giving insight to Sanaki on what love is. The summoner and Sanaki are from literally two different worlds after all. Maybe because of how flustered she is? Perhaps because of her station she's just not used to expressing gratitude or what can be seen as vulnerability, hence her apparent embarassment. Regardless, since the summoner doesn't even speak, it's very easy to see this as "Sanaki now knows what love is because she likes the summoner" and that's the issue, right?

I don't know. I'm really trying to see it differently (like... a kid playing dress up, a young empress who's fated for political marriage, but is curious what love would be like between people if she wasn't royalty), but there's been enough outrage that simply having her in this wedding dress is already giving enough Unfortunate Implications and I'd wonder if any amount of ingame explanation (or if you want to look at it another way, backpedaling) would make people see it differently too.

https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/8kylhn/apparently_these_are_bridal_sanakis_quotes/

For reference. Right now, I'm fairly certain that the trope fits, we just need that citation.

Wasn't aware a topic had been made already.

Honestly I think this needs to be a subject waited upon, since everything right now is knee-jerk and that means people are making rash comments and opinions without any thought to it. I don't see the issue as that big of a deal, since it feels more like Values Dissonance to me. I'm not saying "WOW LOLI SANAKI", just saying I don't think this is as big of a deal as some make it out to be.

Edit: Also for sources, Mekkah is not a good source. He is openly against FEH, so he will jump on the chance to lash out at the game.

Wait do implications have to be intentional to count? Because people are clearly taking it as Loli pandering regardless of the intent by the developers

"Keep in mind that Unfortunate Implications are unintentional. An intended offensive message (for example, a piece of Nazi propaganda about Jews) does not belong here, nor does natter about the author's true intentions. Also, for something that may not be offensive to you personally but may offend others in a different culture or time period (or vice versa), see Values Dissonance."

...I'm starting to question if it would count as UI if it were. As for Values Dissonance as an alternative... she's 10 in this incarnation, and I'm not entirely sure if that's kosher for the time periods or cultures that people are citing wouldn't be offended. It's certainly an option.

(And thanks for the heads-up.)

Hmm...

For the record, does anyone know what Japanese fans think of this Sanaki? Indifferent? Do they like her? Not like her?

You should probably add that within the alts entry paragraph, or at the very least make a mention of the Legendary Heroes as well.

However we need more opinions if we're going to include that within the entry.

In the past few months, we've had banners that - Usually contain three units when they used to do four unit banners - One of these is either a variant of an existing character, not seasonal, or an alternate version of the character, whether it's the true identity (Zelgius) or implied reincarnation (Rhajat) - The Fallen Heroes reached a head with this point where all three characters are technically alternate versions of the character, with two variants (Grima, Celica) and one technically new but still an alternate version (Hardin)

The Thracia banner will be the first time in a long time where the banner units are all new. No variants or anything. In any case, it'd really depend on how strongly people feel about it.

The issue of so many alts is definitely a good candidate for being a Broken Base point as a general idea, especially if the Thracia banner turns out to be an exception, not a return to form.

I also like to point out since that all the alts have come out, the CYL heroes seem to become less of a special thing for them, and not to mention that the CYL characters besides Brave Lyn, while providing a niche, did not receive the higher stat boosts that came with new units released since the Genealogy banner. There is also the case of an alt having outside effects on the fans with the release of Sacred Eirika kinda skewing the results of her voters for CYL 2.

In the end, just take this what you will and we'll see what the future banners bring, particularly the ones after Thracia, and see the trend.

It happened. Not just one alt, but two alts in the Thracia banner.

As the user who deleted that entry, yes that is exactly why I did it. I've seen how people on other sites are talking, and the ones complaining about that were very much the "3DS games are garbage, only old games are good" crowd.

Guess it doesn't really matter now that the entire entry has been trimmed down.

Though for what it's worth, plenty of people wanted to see non-Awakening/Fates seasonals with taking jabs at the games themselves. Mostly people who got into the franchise through Heroes itself.

Even then, his set requires to have player units to attack him, with Vengeful Fighter being the most dangerous skill he has. If you have a sword unit with high speed (35+) with decent res, triangle adept/close defense, Falchion, or even with an armorslayer/smasher, he's easy to bait and win against, or the outside chance with someone with watersweep to attack him to lower his health below Vengeful Fighter range or with Guard to delay procing his Ignis.

However, not everyone will have any of these units available to them, so it might be still That One Boss for some people, especially if they have built a range unit with low def or a melee user with low res, even with weapon triangle advantage.

I think it certainly qualifies. I remember several people on the Heroes subreddit saying they actually felt legitimately bad about what happened and some even were worried that the reason Sophia couldn't see her was because they had actually killed her.

Placing the entries into here for review:

• Valter's Grand Hero Battle map forgoes tactics and simply has up to 14 enemy units mercilessly rushing the player down in a dogpile of death, as reinforcements spawn each turn. The map is incredibly cramped for any unit who isn't a flier, making the rush extremely difficult to handle, especially because most of the enemies are fliers themselves, making the aforementioned cramped map a nonissue for them. Bring a Brave Bow(+) and a Dancer or die. Fitting for a map likely based off his home game's equally frustrating chapter.
• Arvis' Grand Hero Battle map is similar to Legion and Valter's in that the focus is on reinforcements that spawn on each turn. What really makes it frustrating is that the map is almost perfectly designed to stop Horse Emblem and Armor Emblem teams. How? Forest tiles and mages. There is very little room for cavalry units to maneuver in without being in the way of Arvis, who will debuff anyone in a cardinal direction from him, and a Lance Cavalier wielding a Ridersbane. Armor Emblem players also have to deal with power mages who will exploit the low resistance of most armored units, while making it difficult for any armored unit not wielding a weapon with Distant Counter or has the skill able to stop them. Meanwhile Arvis sits at a good spot that makes moving units tricky since he can easily reach half-way across the battlefield to attack since the map is small, and he always has his AOE special ready on Hard and Lunatic. The final kicker is that the reinforcements spawn right next to where your units start, meaning if you don't manage to take out the nearby mages or cavaliers, you can be surrounded by four powerful enemies. Unlike Valter's, a Dancer really doesn't help since on a Horse Emblem team they can't move around safely, and in most cases its better to let your units deal with the enemy units on their turns. Essentially, the map forces players into a tight corner and requires the player to hold out against enemies that relentlessly attack the only area of safety you have, while Arvis sits back and debuffs anyone in his sight.
• Amelia and Tana take a page out of Valter's and Arvis' books for their Bound Hero Battle. The left side of the map is filled with armors who have ungodly high defenses (and almost all of which have Wary Fighter to artificially increase their bulk), while the right side is filled with pegasi knights who ignores the forested terrain around your starting spot to rush you down. This is further exacerbated by Amelia's Armor March to artificially remove the 1-move limit armor units have, as well as Flier Formation on Tana's flying flunkies and Guidance on Tana herself to really ratchet up the unpredictability of the AI movement.
• The Developers Map "k2: Manakete Squad" which consists of Fae, Young Tiki, Nowi, and Ninian on Lunatic. They all have Fortify Dragon, and they can safely reach the defense tiles on their turn with their boosted defenses to become ungodly walls that murder at long-range all because most of them possess a refined Lightning Breath+, which means they can strike the lowest defensive stat when attacked by a long-range fighter and can screw the likes of Deirdre. They all have ungodly boosted stats from a number of untold merges. Not even your Falchion users will come out alive as Marth, Lucina, and Masked Marth possess crappy resistance, which the dragons excel at. Take into account Ninian is a rare dragon dancer, and this means it will be a slaughterhouse in there. The map all but spells "Pay To Win to get your one orb".

Brutal Bonus Level move?

Sounds most plausible, but do all of the entries need to be carried over or should they be made more general?

There'll always be really tough Grand Hero Battles and Bound Hero Battles popping up here and there, so might as well just make it general.

While I agree that this section could use some trimming, I think Reinhardt's spot definitely deserves to be there. To this day, he's still one out of 2 characters from Thracia 776 to be in the game and no one would ever have anticipated someone like him getting in as early as he did. I mean, the guy got in the game before Ike.

Even now, it's still kind of absurd to think how he was able to essentially leap frog everyone ahead of him.

Broken Base is for in-fanbase civil wars, not broad critical reception.

Furthermore, Broken Base posts need to be balanced between both sides, and not firmly sided with the negatives like "Some people think this is a terrible thing that does absolutely everything wrong and is one of the worst things ever made.... but some people are okay with it." Otherwise it just becomes complaining.

The season isn't even over, so no.

Besides, that entry seems to be just complaining. I'm pretty sure a mobile game can't suffer Seasonal Rot anyways, since the game does not have "seasons" outside of Arena seasons, which are different.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s the best trope that fits the situation. I’m seeing people quitting the game over it, as well as a lot of comparisons to the likes of Activision and Bandai Namco. Not helping this is the fact that many people viewed Ayra as a Powercreeped unit. Perhaps it can go something like this?

• Internet Backdraft: There's been a few controversies in the community for quite some time, but none of it compares to Ayra's spontaneous inclusion on the Tempest Trials focus. First off, many people already spent their orbs on the previous Geneology banner, making it seem like a bait banner. Second, Ayra was discovered to be a very powerful unit with a signature special to boot, and she was placed on the same banner with the less powerful Eldigan, meaning that players often got their pity rates broken by him. Plus, Eldigan was a 20% bonus unit instead of 40% like Ayra. Intelligent Systems was also pretty generous with the fandom before, giving them orbs and free summons. Finally, many people expected her to be a free unit as a Tempest Trials or Grand Hero Battle reward. This decision turned the entire fandom into an inferno, with many people either comparing Intelligent Systems to the likes of EA, or outright quitting the game entirely.

Honestly, I think part of it might be how misused Broken Base and Internet Backdraft get in the FE community... but with all the posts I've seen (and made) in the past five hours, I'm thinking this time, it's appropriate.

I think this is actually one thing that everyone can agree on as an Internet Backdraft.

Broken Base would imply that the fanbase would be split about this, with one side being all for it or fine with it, the other being the opposite. Here, I'm seeing no one praise this. And rightfully so, it's as if they pulled a rug from underneath us.

Should Seliph's absence also be noted as something detrimental? It's jarring how he's not a bonus unit even though he's the star of the storyline. Although if he shared the banner with Ayra and Eldigan, that'd probably cause even worse problems.

Seliph's (and to a lesser extent Julia's) absence in both the banner and Tempest Trials bonuses would not be as jarring as both Eldigan's and Lachesis' presence in the banner, since all the bonus units are 1st Generation in Genealogy of the Holy War. As such, the focus should be on Ayra herself being more powerful compared to other Infantry Sword units, her banner with other older game units (and one of them being the same color no less), and the possible precedent that Intelligence Systems could pull another one like this in the future for Tempest Trials should they still keep their way (which people are rallying against).

One thing to note is that when the game was updated, people datamined her data and people went with the presumption that she is a TT reward unit, not a summonable hero like right now.

Edit: I should remember to read the main page before I post.

I think so. It'll probably get longer too.

Done.

I was thinking about this as well. Maybe wait until the official release to see what the public opinion of him actually is.