Dethroning Moment Pokemon Anime Discussion

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10:23:08 AM Aug 22nd 2016
  • What, you thought the gym battles against Sabrina, Erika, and Team Rocket were a disappointment? Then allow me the (dis)honor of reintroducing you to the gym battle against Elesa. In the games, she's known for being not only a respectable character with quite the appealing design, but also for having quite the annoying team with moves like Volt Switch. In other words, she's quite the capable battler. Now let's see how the anime portrays her gym battle with Ash. The first red flag that this gym battle is going to be underwhelming is that she starts off with her signature mon Zebstrika, which is easily dispatched by Ash's trump card Palpitoad. Then Elesa's Emolga comes out and beats Palpitoad, and we see how bad this really gets; Ash literally thought he could breeze through Elesa with just one Pokémon, and only brought Palpitoad! So he rushes out of the battlefield to get one more Pokémon, which happens to be Snivy. And Ash, being Ash, forgot that Emolga's also part flying type, not to mention Attract only works on the opposite gender. Needless to say, Ash is now down 2-1, and Pikachu finally steps up to fight, beating the Emolga. At this point, Elesa sends out her last Pokémon...a Tynamo. Not even evolved into an Eelektross or even an Eelektrik, unevolved Tynamo, whose only move is Tackle. I don't care if it was a powerful Tackle; Tackle is the most basic of moves, and it didn't even get its Gen VI power buff yet. It's such a huge disrespect, because Elesa is quite the fan favorite, and beating her in the games requires you to throw a monkey wrench into her own strategy. In the anime, Ash only nearly lost because he was even stupider than usual, and her team tried to look threatening while having one of the most underwhelming lineups in the anime's long history.

Changed my entry to Ash losing to Alain and throwing everything good about XY out the proverbial window.
12:41:57 PM Apr 17th 2016
Is it alright to add material for the Pokemon Adventures Manga, or does this have it's own page somewhere where I can't find it?
12:43:02 PM Aug 24th 2016
edited by SenorCornholio
This page is mainly for the anime, it looks like. I think you'll have to go to the main Anime and Manga page for your manga entry. You can try to convince them to make this about all Pokémon media, but Idk. I'm just telling you what's apparent at the moment. And if it does come to adding your entry on the main page, I checked and there's not a single Manga/PokémonSpecial moment on the list right now. You can place it at the bottom if you'd like.
05:35:19 AM Aug 6th 2014
When are they going to add an XY section? I have a moment for that.
07:43:31 AM Aug 6th 2014
Well, if you can add material, feel free to do so.
09:16:48 PM Jun 13th 2014
edited by
For me its when Iris tossed a pokeball at Meowth because she had no right to try to catch him that should be Jessie or James their his friends when I first heard about that on serebi I was crying my eyes out for days the Team Rocket are my all time favorite characters in pokemon and I thought that was the end of them and if Meowth does get a trainer it should be someone nice and cool or funny not a B-word like Iris I've hated her with a passion ever since.
09:20:53 PM Jun 13th 2014
Why is this on the discussion page?
09:27:22 PM Jun 13th 2014
sorry I'm new to posting on the site and don't know how to post on the page and thought we did it form here.
12:02:50 PM Apr 26th 2014
edited by
Was there any need to delete the example for Cruisin' For A Losin'?, because the sheer Character Derailment of May and the Contest Judges still makes my blood boil.
01:52:08 PM Apr 26th 2014
I don't think so. While listing characters is definitely a forbidden zone, the rules don't forbid listing episodes. Lets be fair here, there are episodes that are that bad. Sometimes the writer is not satisfied with just a stumble, they want to hit the skies and they extend the moment. We cannot list something like seasons, we have a different trope for that, but a dethroning moment may very well be something disastrous that falls like a line of dominoes until the big crash happens. Extending the same offense to no end for the duration of the episode, for example, definitely counts in my book because it highlights the mistake. If I'm not mistaken the moment in question was the folks of May's hometown repeatedly shilling everything she does and disrespecting everyone who disagrees or something like that. I think it counts, so the removal sounds more like "removing entries I don't like".
02:30:58 AM Apr 27th 2014
I can't find any such example in the edit history.
04:27:33 PM Apr 27th 2014
I realized this removal because of the following discussion in Ask The Tropers: harryhenry: "Ok, in the Web Original section of Dethroning Moment of Suck, a lot of the entries are entire episodes of a web show, rather than moments within those episodes. Are there different rules in the Web Original section for what counts as a "Moment"? " harryhenry: "Bump." Fighteer: "I would think that the same rules would apply. Tighten it up to the specific thing that was disliked." harryhenry: "So should I delete the entries that are about entire episodes like usual?" Fighteer: "Yes." harryhenry: "According to "Ecclytennysmithylove", The rules don't say anything about "no episodes". So should I put them back? " Septimus Heap: "No, because the rules do say "specific moments only" - no way an episode is a "moment". " Mag Bas: "A lot of entries in other pages are about entire episodes, not only one moment. Clean-up time? " crazysamaritan: "Correct." Mag Bas: "Okay, thanks." jynxmenow: "Did a quick slim-down of the main Web Original page. Going back to edit more soon. " Jynxmenow: "t turns out there are a number of subpages which had several examples that were just "this entire episode", and when they were removed, the page itself only had one or two examples. The remaining examples were moved, but there will need to be cuts made to these pages:

Collegehumor Death Battle Confused Matthew The Amazing Atheist The Spoony Experiment Yu Gi Oh! The Abridged Series " crazysamaritan:" That belongs in the Cut List. :) Thanks for keeping the wiki Cool." jynxmenow: "The Zero Punctuation page needs editing, but has been locked." crazysamaritan: "Then you go to the forums. In the Frequently Asked Questions forum, there's a pinned post for Editing Locked Pages. Read the instructions on the first page for how to post new edits for those pages. " jynxmenow: "Thanks."
04:56:31 AM Sep 14th 2013
This entry is being edit warred over. Not knowing the details of the work, the reason for the removal of the entry looks to me like the editor disagreed subjectively - which is never OK for a removal in these sections.
  • Latios2: Personally... I have an odd confession... that I like all of the Pokémon movies... with the exception of Arceus And The Jewel Of Life... however it's not the focus of this moment. No, this moment goes to the movie Kyurem Vs The Swords Of Justice. The movie is a lot better then most of the recent movies admittingly... except for the end that nearly ruins it. The ending had an epic duel between Keldeo and Kyurem that's sure to be remembered, Kyurem having nearly frozen an entire city and scarring the living crap out of Keldeo and the protagonists making it vastly intimidating villain that'll surely.. ...wait what? Kyurem's not evil? ...Bullshit! While I do like the other movies... this is a cliché in the movies that has really grating my nerves for a while now! Deoxys and Darkai are the only two I let off the hook in this regard... Giratina was more so apathetic because it wasn't that poorly handled. Arceus was where it started getting annoying, and the antagonist for Black and White really started making it a problem... but Kyurem!? Kyurem was causing mayhem without a doubt over an entire city and hunted Keldeo down like a dog that wouldn't stop hunting! But nope... Kyurem's not really evil... ...this really knocked the movie down several pegs having nearly ruined it.
07:35:19 AM Sep 14th 2013
At the very least, I'd like to hear a reason to remove the entry that addresses two of the other significant complaints about the sequence. First, that Kyurem led a mob of ice Pokemon and actually attacked a city full of innocent people (though none are seen) as a result of Keldeo's escape, without even saying anything to the effect of "finish the fight and I'll call them off". Second, that this is at least the fifth time the show has used the plot point in a film where the legendary is judged to be not evil in the end despite nearly destroying a city of innocents. (I can't recall that exact thing happening with Giratina, but the assumed threat to Shaymin and those near it still existed.)
04:20:23 PM Sep 16th 2013
edited by This is all the information you need to know regarding Kyurem's background and character. It states that the reason why he attacked was because he was enraged that Keldeo chose to flee instead of fighting him. It also states that Kyurem, like many Legendary Pokemon, is distrustful of humans. He likely wouldn't care if they got hurt in an attack, not because he's evil, but because he simply doesn't like humans. It's established in the film that the final test of becoming a Sword Of Justice is to challenge and defeat Kyurem in battle and that Keldeo, being too young and inexperienced, foolishly challenged Kyurem before he was ready for such a task. Kyurem is a Blood Knight, a creature that enjoys battling. But, he also has a sense of honor. He was willing to end the fight when Keldeo chose to lose the fight in order to save his friends. Nowhere in the film does it ever state that Kyurem is supposed to be a villain, just that defeating him in battle is the final test of becoming a Sword Of Justice. There are clear reasons in the film as to why Kyurem chased after Keldeo and why he attacked the city. He hates cowardice and doesn't trust humans (A trait found in many Legendaries in the Anime).
06:14:34 AM Sep 17th 2013
Fuck. I wish I could argue against it, but that sounds legitimate. In fact, it makes Keldeo an absolute idiot in the end.

Still, Kyurem still froze an entire city and tried to kill Ash and co for helping Keldeo, so still not justified. And don't say Blood Knight, because telling a bunch of Cryogonal to turn everything to ice is not an example of that. And whatever happens, having Kyurem shift formes at will was a blatant middle finger to the games. I just hope that this movie means we won't have to see Professor Juniper again.
09:20:11 AM Sep 17th 2013
Kyurem had the city frozen for three reasons. First, it's because he dislikes humans and wouldn't care if they survived or not. Second, and more importantly, for the same reason why he also had Ash, Iris, Cilian, and the Swords Of Justice frozen as well. He didn't want them interfering in the battle with Keldeo. He wanted a strictly one-on-one battle against Keldeo and felt that it would be dishonorable if Keldeo was allowed to be helped in the fight. Also, he wanted to test to see if Keldeo had reached his full potential to truly be a Sword Of Justice and knew he couldn't do that if others would constantly join in the fight and help Keldeo. The third reason was to lure Keldeo out. Kyurem knew that, as a Sword Of Justice, Keldeo's duty was to protect others. And, if people were being frozen by a swarm of Cryogonal, that he would have to push aside his fears and face off against Kyurem to save them. Was Kyurem a Jerk Ass for having his subordinates freeze a city? Well, yes. But, he wasn't doing it out of malice or any evil intent. He just wanted Keldeo to stop being a coward and fight him in a one-on-one battle.
10:02:50 AM Sep 17th 2013
How would you know Kyurem thought freezing a city would lure him out? Also, just because it wasn't malicious doesn't make it better. We don't disregard trolling just because someone was having a bad day. Also, Keldeo lied about being a Musketeer, but how would Kyurem know that?
05:10:06 PM Sep 18th 2013
edited by
"How would you know Kyurem thought freezing a city would lure him out?"

Basic tactical reasons. Keldeo was hiding, so Kyurem needed a way to lure him out into the open. And, freezing the city would've shown Keldeo the consequences of hiding like a coward. It would cause Keldeo to realize that him being a coward is allowing others to get hurt, and that he would have to come out of hiding and face Kyurem.

"Also, just because it wasn't malicious doesn't make it better."

No, but it explains Kyurem's actions. Kyurem isn't a villain, but he's not nice either. He'll use brute force if necessary. And, like I said before, he hates humans, so he wouldn't care if they got hurt in the first place. He had the city frozen as a tactical maneuver, but had no interest if any of them were to survive.

"We don't disregard trolling just because someone was having a bad day."

Keldeo challenged Kyurem despite being too inexperienced. Terrakion tried to interfere with the battle, but Kyurem froze him, Cobalion, and Virizion. Keldeo fled like a coward. Kyurem became enraged since he hates cowardice and chased after Keldeo to get him to finish the fight. Keldeo hid in the city. Kyurem had the city frozen to lure Keldeo out so they could finish the fight. At no point was anything that either of them did in the film "trolling" due to a bad day. Yes, Keldeo was being chased by an angry zombie dragon, but that's because, again, he was running away instead of fighting back. Also, as the Bulbapedia article states, the reason WHY Keldeo challenged Kyurem to begin with was because defeating Kyurem (or at least giving him a satisfactory battle) is the final test to becoming a Sword Of Justice. Keldeo wasn't challenging Kyurem to "troll" him, but rather to prove himself worthy. It's just that he was not ready yet and realized it too late.

"Also, Keldeo lied about being a Musketeer, but how would Kyurem know that?"

1. Selective plot hearing. That little bit of plot convenience that allows a character to know something he/she wouldn't be able to know otherwise. This is one of those things where the MST3K Mantra comes in. 2. Kyurem likely noticed that Keldeo's actions were not the same as the other Swords Of Justice whom he had fought before. It would be like if a professional boxer were to go up against an amateur boxer (IE: Such as some kid from his high school boxing team). The professional would notice right away that the amateur doesn't have the same fighting skills as another professional would. It's likely, therefore, that Kyurem noticed that Keldeo lacked the experience needed to challenge him, but allowed the battle to occur anyway since he was already challenged to do so.
05:35:45 PM Sep 18th 2013
"freezing the city would've shown Keldeo the consequences of hiding like a coward. It would cause Keldeo to realize that him being a coward is allowing others to get hurt, and that he would have to come out of hiding and face Kyurem."

Except it doesn't. By terms of the plot, both Keldeo and Ash didn't give a single damn about the backdrops they were using to run away from Kyurem. They went back to him because Keldeo got defeatist and Ash gave another of his signature screams of "FRIENDSHIP IS IMPORTANT!!!!!!!! " to make him fight. The city freezing was only shown for visual showoffs. Hell, the plot would've had no difference at all if Kyurem couldn't freeze everything he brushed against. So no, that wasn't the writers' intention. Plus, how do we know if that was Kyurem's plan at all? It just seemed like he was mindlessly chasing Keldeo after all, since he fell for Iris and Cilan's excuses for Deus Exit Machinas.

"*long rant about the plot*"

I was giving a comparison, not calling this movie trolling.

"That little bit of plot convenience that allows a character to know something he/she wouldn't be able to know otherwise. This is one of those things where the MST3K Mantra comes in."

Still sounds like bad writing.

"*boxing comparison*"

Perhaps, but it's never explicitly stated Kyurem realized this in the film, so it fails to make sense. We can talk about Fridge Brilliance all we want, but if it isn't explicitly said, it becomes WMG.
07:31:33 PM Sep 4th 2013
Quick question. Between the potholed sarcasm and the namedropping of other works of anime and their producers, what's the actual complaint about The Fires Of A Red-Hot Reunion? It's vague to the point that I can't even tell what's set off the wikiworded berserk button. The fact that they had a flashback? That they redubbed it? That they might have changed a few parts in ways that aren't specified in the entry? I don't even know what Rebuild has to do with it.
06:03:11 AM Sep 17th 2013
He was probably just upset that they used new footage instead of stock. Probably because animation in 1998 was vastly different in quality to 2012, and the kids would probably be less stimulated by it. Unfortunately, most of the footage is out of context and/or mauling the entire scene, such as their abridgement of Attack Of The Prehistoric Pokemon, where Aerodactyl is essentially trolling Ash instead of flying around Hyper Beaming everything with Ash in its talons after it burst out of the ground, plus there's no Jigglypuff either. And there's everyone even getting re-dubbed, though who knows who was voicing Misty or Damian, what with the TPC takeover. And when Charizard actually showed up, the Charizard vs Dragonite match-up everyone wanted to see got prevented by "N" suddenly remember he's against Pokemon violence. And IMO this is Charizard's weakest moveset yet, with Slash, Dragon Tail, Flamethrower and Wing Attack, losing its signature Seismic Toss entirely.
09:36:28 PM Jun 20th 2013
This week, the worst episode of Pokemon has aired. The plot? Ash and Iris start hating each other over a stupid Dunsparce!
01:47:14 PM Apr 2nd 2013
Pulled both of these. One moment per troper, peeps, so please choose one of these only.

  • Lokia: And even worse than [Bianca's finally coming back for the Unova League], Ash actually regressed in placement. Last time, it was the top four and now he is top eight again, adding more fuel to reason Ash being a less effective trainer in Unova than the other regions. At least one can be glad Cameron didn't win the tournament and be slightly pleased the title of victor went to someone far less of an idiot. One must have to wonder if Ash would have won if he used the full six and how the fight with Virgil would have gone.

  • Lokia: Not to mention that earlier in Arceus And The Jewel Of Life, fighting Kyurem wasn't just part of Keldeo being arrogant, but was an intended task in his path of becoming a Sword of Justice. Why were the Swords of Justice, a group focused on justice and peace, focused on a mon that was mentioned not to be evil at all? With Kyurem not being evil, it seems like it removes the only visible reason the Swords of Justice to even show interest in the dragon.
11:58:35 AM Jan 13th 2013
People here take Pokemon WAY too seriously...
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