Dethroning Moment Pokemon Anime Discussion

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02:20:35 PM Sep 14th 2016
It has been discussed here that this page should be locked since so much emphasis is being placed on the following:
  • SCP Ihpkmn: For once in his life, Ash makes it to the finals of a Pokemon League. The XY series has been great overall- better writing, better animation, better character development. In the finals, he's in a battle with Alain, a trainer who uses Mega Evolution, and has beaten Ash in the past. It's Ash-Greninja vs. Alain's Mega Charizard X- Ash has a Pokemon he's fully in sync with to the point where it's got its own Super Mode, on top of one of his best teams ever... and he loses! It's a complete anticlimax that shows how much the Status Quo Is God in this show- Ash can't ever win a Pokemon League, because if he did, the series would end. It feels like Alain's victory was pulled out of nowhere by bullshit Plot Armor. This completely derailed the series for me, just as I was starting to enjoy the Pokemon anime again, for the first time since I was seven. Whoever wrote this needs to be fired and never work in anime production again.
    • Hunter Seeker: Seriously, it's just more than that. Ash may probably never win a League proper, but how he loses this is downright humiliating to him and audiences. To explain how thick Plot Armor Alain (or specifically his Charizard) got, consider this: Ash-Greninja's huge Water Shuriken can defeat Sawyer's Mega Sceptile despite a total type disadvantage (along with its Leaf Storm but still), and then its powered-up version (the orange disc which is probably borrowed from Naruto) can't even seem to do any significant damage on Charizard; and instead Greninja fall on one Blast Burn even it doesn't take much damage before (it parried most of Charizard's attacks, especially Thunderpunches)! This fight is complete bullshit even before other factors are added into the equation (the imperfect Ash-Greninja can flat-out curbstomp Mega'd Charizard; and even before the two met in the final fight Pikachu had already zapped Charizard with Thunderbolt), and considering how much shilling the anime staff showered on Ash over his possibility to finally win a League, this single fucking fight (and Ash's loss) flushed XY's good reputation right down the shitter. The huge Internet Backdraft following the episode is well-deserved; the fans have had enough. (I just feel bad for Alain, somehow he is shaped to avoid all the complaints over Tobias, yet he unwillingly become one even worse than the original.)
    • Senor Cornholio: I'm changing my entry to this because it came off as even more insulting than any bad gym battle. Not only did Ash lose despite countless buildups to him actually winning this league, not only was Alain's victory a total Ass Pull, not only did they make the end of the fight such an anticlimax that it hurts...but the fact is, the anime outright lied to us. They pulled everything out of their hats to make us think this would be Ash's greatest hour, giving him a bit more backstory, adding a childhood friend, giving him a new anime-exclusive ability, building up the final confrontation with Alain, not to mention the Mega Evolution specials getting everyone excited, and the fact that Ash has a perfectly balanced team consisting of his Pikachu, Greninja, Talonflame, Hawlucha, Goodra, and Noivern. In fact, the Japanese titles imply this would be Ash's greatest battle! And after all that, he still somehow loses due to Plot Armor, and the fight itself was just So Okay, It's Average. Talonflame's battle against Unfezant resulted in a double KO, Noivern and Goodra didn't even get one in against Weavile and Bisharp respectively, and the only ones to knock anyone out without getting themselves KO'd were Hawlucha, Greninja, and Pikachu (who took out two of them, both being a Tyranitar and a Metagross, two pseudo-legendaries, and the latter of which was almost an exact copy of how he defeated previous victor Tyson's Metagross back in Hoenn). Then Greninja finally fights Charizard and it comes down to one final attack, with Charizard barely even flinching and Greninja suffering the KO because Ash had to lose. Again. This all simplifies to "no matter how good Ash gets, he must lose because we want him constantly in the anime, or else we lose our money!" Yeah? Well, you know what would be a better financial decision? Replacing Ash! Because now, it's the only thing that can Win Back the Crowd for good. Everything great about XY, from Ash's lineup to his friends to their rivals to even Alain, is all sullied for the simple matter of Ash going to Alola and leaving behind everything he learned, because personal relationships be damned, personal experience means nothing, and the anime is allowed to flat out lie to keep its viewership like a bad SpongeBob special. And with the reveal that Alola has no gyms, it only makes me afraid for the anime's future since there's probably no Pokémon League. And the worst part to me is that it even paints the earlier seasons in a darker light. You heard me right: the earlier seasons, from Kanto to Unova, are all meaningless because of this moment. All those hardships Ash and his friends faced, all the friends they met, all the Pokémon they encountered, and all the times they saved the world...are absolutely pointless, all because Ash isn't allowed to break the status quo; he's allowed to make dents in it, but not actually break it, and any dents he makes are immediately patched up by the Trolling Creators. In short: fuck this, I'm now officially in the camp who wants a Pokémon Adventures anime instead.
    • Raven Warcast: And to top it all off, Alain's motives for competing in the first place are the most shallow I've ever heard from any character in the anime: all he wants to do is fight Ash. He's not even there to win the tournament, it's just a means to an end for him. Add in the fact that he basically blitzed every Gym in the span of less than ten episodes, and it tells us one thing: like Tobias before him, Alain's a player allegory, but not in the way Tobias was. Where Tobias represents those players who load up their team with Legendaries, Alain is the player that power-levels their starter, and both have the same devastating effect on their respective leagues. At least Tobias was trying to win the tournament. With Alain's motives, his presence in the competition is an insult to not just the viewing audience and to Ash, but to every single other trainer on site, marginalizing all the time and effort they all spent into training and qualifying for the tournament. Him actually winning it all makes it all the more damning, and it brings to mind Zoey's mindset of Ash and Nando trying both Contests and Gyms. With how she took issue with them, she was very clearly made out to be the type of person that either goes all out for her stated goal or not at all, and we understand her perspective even if we as the audience know that she's missing some information (Ash entered the Contest for Aipom and not on a whim). I can just imagine her reaction had she been written as a Kalos trainer in the Lumiose Conference instead of a Sinnoh Contest performer. She would have laid into Alain, and rightfully so. I could have swallowed an Ash loss if it had been to Sawyer; he's the one that looked like he was going to be that guy that boots Ash from the tournament, but they'd deviated from the standard formula in two ways. First, they actually took the time to build up Sawyer's Trainer career from the ground up instead of introducing him at the Lumiose Conference. Second, they completely subvert the formula by Ash beating him. In short, just to deny Ash what looked to be a rightful and properly built-up League win, they pulled The Bad Guy Wins (and Alain is effectively the bad guy due to his affiliation with Team Flare) at the last second and proved beyond all shadow of a doubt that the writers are just yanking Ash's chain. And finally, the backlash is so great (and rightfully so) that they actually can't have Ash win a League now even if they wanted to write that, since now it would look like the writers are just pitying Ash due to fan outcry. All those jokes we make about Ash getting pity Badges? Those come back in full force and with the immense weight of a pity League win behind them. What we just saw is the ignoble end of any reason to watch the anime.
    • Tropers/anoni: Agreed on all this. The writers have screwed up big time with this. Not only have they lied to the entire viewerbase, cruelly torn away Ash's first potential victory just because they seem to think that if Ash wins, the shows over, they ruined the XY anime. In addition, they ruined Alain's reputation for being the well liked protagonist of the Mega Evolution specials aimed at the older viewers. All for what? So they can have Ash around for the Alola arc? At the time, Alola seems to have no League meaning if they do add one, fans won't count the League Victory due to not being in the games. You know you've screwed up bad when the next episode's preview on YouTube has over 50,000 dislikes compared to the measly 1,000 likes at the time of this post. If the writers want to salvage the tiny seed of quality the anime has left, they should just finally retire Ash and start having new protagonists every region/series like a large number of series do. Then actually make sure they succeed and not waste everyone's time again. I personally will keep playing the games and occasionally follow Pokémon Special since they're their own separate things, but I wouldn't blame anyone for switching to the anime of Pokemon's current biggest rival.
    • Dr.XXX: Contrary, I didn't mind Ash losing. In fact, I saw it a mile away. The guy suggested the league to Alain so I see it as Hoist by His Own Petard. What bothers me is actually related to this though. Ash Ketchum is the character we have followed throughout the whole journey. When he finally gets close to winning an actual league, the next step to his rather undefined dream, he just sits down and smiles. This video also brought up another infuriating point. Ash was basically thrashed around the entire battle, got crushed by Alain, lost the opportunity to challenge the champion and possibly win the title, and just sits there and smiles like some robot with his happy switch that never gets turned off. It really does speak volume when Sawyer and Team Rocket are sadder for Ash's loss (Well, Saywer was actually sad for his own loss) than Ash himself. He is such a Purity Sue that I'm surprised dark types (evil types in Japan) simply don't die in his mere presence or fairy types don't explode from all the positive energy he radiates or changelings don't jump universes and suck the positive energy out of him for another millennia. It is far from difficult to show some semblance of humanity from this loser protagonist.
Even the infamous Captain America HYDRA twist was only two short entries. Most of what is here excessively overlaps, and there has been edit wars (cutting natter and complaining about previews). We should seriously look into trimming this entry down (I see only enough material for two DMOS entries, Ash loosing under dubious circumstances and his lack of emotion afterward), less we have to lock this like the YMMV page.
11:01:49 PM Sep 16th 2016
Agreed. Honestly, the entry that points out the big issue should be the only one kept. The rest, the agreements with window-dressing attached, should be cut. Unless it' s something new like the last one.
10:23:08 AM Aug 22nd 2016
edited by SenorCornholio
I'm re-instating my old entry due to the Lumiose Conference drama dying down.
12:41:57 PM Apr 17th 2016
Is it alright to add material for the Pokemon Adventures Manga, or does this have it's own page somewhere where I can't find it?
12:43:02 PM Aug 24th 2016
edited by SenorCornholio
This page is mainly for the anime, it looks like. I think you'll have to go to the main Anime and Manga page for your manga entry. You can try to convince them to make this about all Pokémon media, but Idk. I'm just telling you what's apparent at the moment. And if it does come to adding your entry on the main page, I checked and there's not a single Manga/PokémonSpecial moment on the list right now. You can place it at the bottom if you'd like.
05:35:19 AM Aug 6th 2014
When are they going to add an XY section? I have a moment for that.
07:43:31 AM Aug 6th 2014
Well, if you can add material, feel free to do so.
09:16:48 PM Jun 13th 2014
edited by
For me its when Iris tossed a pokeball at Meowth because she had no right to try to catch him that should be Jessie or James their his friends when I first heard about that on serebi I was crying my eyes out for days the Team Rocket are my all time favorite characters in pokemon and I thought that was the end of them and if Meowth does get a trainer it should be someone nice and cool or funny not a B-word like Iris I've hated her with a passion ever since.
09:20:53 PM Jun 13th 2014
Why is this on the discussion page?
09:27:22 PM Jun 13th 2014
sorry I'm new to posting on the site and don't know how to post on the page and thought we did it form here.
12:02:50 PM Apr 26th 2014
edited by
Was there any need to delete the example for Cruisin' For A Losin'?, because the sheer Character Derailment of May and the Contest Judges still makes my blood boil.
01:52:08 PM Apr 26th 2014
I don't think so. While listing characters is definitely a forbidden zone, the rules don't forbid listing episodes. Lets be fair here, there are episodes that are that bad. Sometimes the writer is not satisfied with just a stumble, they want to hit the skies and they extend the moment. We cannot list something like seasons, we have a different trope for that, but a dethroning moment may very well be something disastrous that falls like a line of dominoes until the big crash happens. Extending the same offense to no end for the duration of the episode, for example, definitely counts in my book because it highlights the mistake. If I'm not mistaken the moment in question was the folks of May's hometown repeatedly shilling everything she does and disrespecting everyone who disagrees or something like that. I think it counts, so the removal sounds more like "removing entries I don't like".
02:30:58 AM Apr 27th 2014
I can't find any such example in the edit history.
04:27:33 PM Apr 27th 2014
I realized this removal because of the following discussion in Ask The Tropers: harryhenry: "Ok, in the Web Original section of Dethroning Moment of Suck, a lot of the entries are entire episodes of a web show, rather than moments within those episodes. Are there different rules in the Web Original section for what counts as a "Moment"? " harryhenry: "Bump." Fighteer: "I would think that the same rules would apply. Tighten it up to the specific thing that was disliked." harryhenry: "So should I delete the entries that are about entire episodes like usual?" Fighteer: "Yes." harryhenry: "According to "Ecclytennysmithylove", The rules don't say anything about "no episodes". So should I put them back? " Septimus Heap: "No, because the rules do say "specific moments only" - no way an episode is a "moment". " Mag Bas: "A lot of entries in other pages are about entire episodes, not only one moment. Clean-up time? " crazysamaritan: "Correct." Mag Bas: "Okay, thanks." jynxmenow: "Did a quick slim-down of the main Web Original page. Going back to edit more soon. " Jynxmenow: "t turns out there are a number of subpages which had several examples that were just "this entire episode", and when they were removed, the page itself only had one or two examples. The remaining examples were moved, but there will need to be cuts made to these pages:

Collegehumor Death Battle Confused Matthew The Amazing Atheist The Spoony Experiment Yu Gi Oh! The Abridged Series " crazysamaritan:" That belongs in the Cut List. :) Thanks for keeping the wiki Cool." jynxmenow: "The Zero Punctuation page needs editing, but has been locked." crazysamaritan: "Then you go to the forums. In the Frequently Asked Questions forum, there's a pinned post for Editing Locked Pages. Read the instructions on the first page for how to post new edits for those pages. " jynxmenow: "Thanks."
04:56:31 AM Sep 14th 2013
This entry is being edit warred over. Not knowing the details of the work, the reason for the removal of the entry looks to me like the editor disagreed subjectively - which is never OK for a removal in these sections.
  • Latios2: Personally... I have an odd confession... that I like all of the Pokémon movies... with the exception of Arceus And The Jewel Of Life... however it's not the focus of this moment. No, this moment goes to the movie Kyurem Vs The Swords Of Justice. The movie is a lot better then most of the recent movies admittingly... except for the end that nearly ruins it. The ending had an epic duel between Keldeo and Kyurem that's sure to be remembered, Kyurem having nearly frozen an entire city and scarring the living crap out of Keldeo and the protagonists making it vastly intimidating villain that'll surely.. ...wait what? Kyurem's not evil? ...Bullshit! While I do like the other movies... this is a cliché in the movies that has really grating my nerves for a while now! Deoxys and Darkai are the only two I let off the hook in this regard... Giratina was more so apathetic because it wasn't that poorly handled. Arceus was where it started getting annoying, and the antagonist for Black and White really started making it a problem... but Kyurem!? Kyurem was causing mayhem without a doubt over an entire city and hunted Keldeo down like a dog that wouldn't stop hunting! But nope... Kyurem's not really evil... ...this really knocked the movie down several pegs having nearly ruined it.
07:35:19 AM Sep 14th 2013
At the very least, I'd like to hear a reason to remove the entry that addresses two of the other significant complaints about the sequence. First, that Kyurem led a mob of ice Pokemon and actually attacked a city full of innocent people (though none are seen) as a result of Keldeo's escape, without even saying anything to the effect of "finish the fight and I'll call them off". Second, that this is at least the fifth time the show has used the plot point in a film where the legendary is judged to be not evil in the end despite nearly destroying a city of innocents. (I can't recall that exact thing happening with Giratina, but the assumed threat to Shaymin and those near it still existed.)
04:20:23 PM Sep 16th 2013
edited by This is all the information you need to know regarding Kyurem's background and character. It states that the reason why he attacked was because he was enraged that Keldeo chose to flee instead of fighting him. It also states that Kyurem, like many Legendary Pokemon, is distrustful of humans. He likely wouldn't care if they got hurt in an attack, not because he's evil, but because he simply doesn't like humans. It's established in the film that the final test of becoming a Sword Of Justice is to challenge and defeat Kyurem in battle and that Keldeo, being too young and inexperienced, foolishly challenged Kyurem before he was ready for such a task. Kyurem is a Blood Knight, a creature that enjoys battling. But, he also has a sense of honor. He was willing to end the fight when Keldeo chose to lose the fight in order to save his friends. Nowhere in the film does it ever state that Kyurem is supposed to be a villain, just that defeating him in battle is the final test of becoming a Sword Of Justice. There are clear reasons in the film as to why Kyurem chased after Keldeo and why he attacked the city. He hates cowardice and doesn't trust humans (A trait found in many Legendaries in the Anime).
06:14:34 AM Sep 17th 2013
Fuck. I wish I could argue against it, but that sounds legitimate. In fact, it makes Keldeo an absolute idiot in the end.

Still, Kyurem still froze an entire city and tried to kill Ash and co for helping Keldeo, so still not justified. And don't say Blood Knight, because telling a bunch of Cryogonal to turn everything to ice is not an example of that. And whatever happens, having Kyurem shift formes at will was a blatant middle finger to the games. I just hope that this movie means we won't have to see Professor Juniper again.
09:20:11 AM Sep 17th 2013
Kyurem had the city frozen for three reasons. First, it's because he dislikes humans and wouldn't care if they survived or not. Second, and more importantly, for the same reason why he also had Ash, Iris, Cilian, and the Swords Of Justice frozen as well. He didn't want them interfering in the battle with Keldeo. He wanted a strictly one-on-one battle against Keldeo and felt that it would be dishonorable if Keldeo was allowed to be helped in the fight. Also, he wanted to test to see if Keldeo had reached his full potential to truly be a Sword Of Justice and knew he couldn't do that if others would constantly join in the fight and help Keldeo. The third reason was to lure Keldeo out. Kyurem knew that, as a Sword Of Justice, Keldeo's duty was to protect others. And, if people were being frozen by a swarm of Cryogonal, that he would have to push aside his fears and face off against Kyurem to save them. Was Kyurem a Jerk Ass for having his subordinates freeze a city? Well, yes. But, he wasn't doing it out of malice or any evil intent. He just wanted Keldeo to stop being a coward and fight him in a one-on-one battle.
10:02:50 AM Sep 17th 2013
How would you know Kyurem thought freezing a city would lure him out? Also, just because it wasn't malicious doesn't make it better. We don't disregard trolling just because someone was having a bad day. Also, Keldeo lied about being a Musketeer, but how would Kyurem know that?
05:10:06 PM Sep 18th 2013
edited by
"How would you know Kyurem thought freezing a city would lure him out?"

Basic tactical reasons. Keldeo was hiding, so Kyurem needed a way to lure him out into the open. And, freezing the city would've shown Keldeo the consequences of hiding like a coward. It would cause Keldeo to realize that him being a coward is allowing others to get hurt, and that he would have to come out of hiding and face Kyurem.

"Also, just because it wasn't malicious doesn't make it better."

No, but it explains Kyurem's actions. Kyurem isn't a villain, but he's not nice either. He'll use brute force if necessary. And, like I said before, he hates humans, so he wouldn't care if they got hurt in the first place. He had the city frozen as a tactical maneuver, but had no interest if any of them were to survive.

"We don't disregard trolling just because someone was having a bad day."

Keldeo challenged Kyurem despite being too inexperienced. Terrakion tried to interfere with the battle, but Kyurem froze him, Cobalion, and Virizion. Keldeo fled like a coward. Kyurem became enraged since he hates cowardice and chased after Keldeo to get him to finish the fight. Keldeo hid in the city. Kyurem had the city frozen to lure Keldeo out so they could finish the fight. At no point was anything that either of them did in the film "trolling" due to a bad day. Yes, Keldeo was being chased by an angry zombie dragon, but that's because, again, he was running away instead of fighting back. Also, as the Bulbapedia article states, the reason WHY Keldeo challenged Kyurem to begin with was because defeating Kyurem (or at least giving him a satisfactory battle) is the final test to becoming a Sword Of Justice. Keldeo wasn't challenging Kyurem to "troll" him, but rather to prove himself worthy. It's just that he was not ready yet and realized it too late.

"Also, Keldeo lied about being a Musketeer, but how would Kyurem know that?"

1. Selective plot hearing. That little bit of plot convenience that allows a character to know something he/she wouldn't be able to know otherwise. This is one of those things where the MST3K Mantra comes in. 2. Kyurem likely noticed that Keldeo's actions were not the same as the other Swords Of Justice whom he had fought before. It would be like if a professional boxer were to go up against an amateur boxer (IE: Such as some kid from his high school boxing team). The professional would notice right away that the amateur doesn't have the same fighting skills as another professional would. It's likely, therefore, that Kyurem noticed that Keldeo lacked the experience needed to challenge him, but allowed the battle to occur anyway since he was already challenged to do so.
05:35:45 PM Sep 18th 2013
"freezing the city would've shown Keldeo the consequences of hiding like a coward. It would cause Keldeo to realize that him being a coward is allowing others to get hurt, and that he would have to come out of hiding and face Kyurem."

Except it doesn't. By terms of the plot, both Keldeo and Ash didn't give a single damn about the backdrops they were using to run away from Kyurem. They went back to him because Keldeo got defeatist and Ash gave another of his signature screams of "FRIENDSHIP IS IMPORTANT!!!!!!!! " to make him fight. The city freezing was only shown for visual showoffs. Hell, the plot would've had no difference at all if Kyurem couldn't freeze everything he brushed against. So no, that wasn't the writers' intention. Plus, how do we know if that was Kyurem's plan at all? It just seemed like he was mindlessly chasing Keldeo after all, since he fell for Iris and Cilan's excuses for Deus Exit Machinas.

"*long rant about the plot*"

I was giving a comparison, not calling this movie trolling.

"That little bit of plot convenience that allows a character to know something he/she wouldn't be able to know otherwise. This is one of those things where the MST3K Mantra comes in."

Still sounds like bad writing.

"*boxing comparison*"

Perhaps, but it's never explicitly stated Kyurem realized this in the film, so it fails to make sense. We can talk about Fridge Brilliance all we want, but if it isn't explicitly said, it becomes WMG.
07:31:33 PM Sep 4th 2013
Quick question. Between the potholed sarcasm and the namedropping of other works of anime and their producers, what's the actual complaint about The Fires Of A Red-Hot Reunion? It's vague to the point that I can't even tell what's set off the wikiworded berserk button. The fact that they had a flashback? That they redubbed it? That they might have changed a few parts in ways that aren't specified in the entry? I don't even know what Rebuild has to do with it.
06:03:11 AM Sep 17th 2013
He was probably just upset that they used new footage instead of stock. Probably because animation in 1998 was vastly different in quality to 2012, and the kids would probably be less stimulated by it. Unfortunately, most of the footage is out of context and/or mauling the entire scene, such as their abridgement of Attack Of The Prehistoric Pokemon, where Aerodactyl is essentially trolling Ash instead of flying around Hyper Beaming everything with Ash in its talons after it burst out of the ground, plus there's no Jigglypuff either. And there's everyone even getting re-dubbed, though who knows who was voicing Misty or Damian, what with the TPC takeover. And when Charizard actually showed up, the Charizard vs Dragonite match-up everyone wanted to see got prevented by "N" suddenly remember he's against Pokemon violence. And IMO this is Charizard's weakest moveset yet, with Slash, Dragon Tail, Flamethrower and Wing Attack, losing its signature Seismic Toss entirely.
09:36:28 PM Jun 20th 2013
This week, the worst episode of Pokemon has aired. The plot? Ash and Iris start hating each other over a stupid Dunsparce!
01:47:14 PM Apr 2nd 2013
Pulled both of these. One moment per troper, peeps, so please choose one of these only.

  • Lokia: And even worse than [Bianca's finally coming back for the Unova League], Ash actually regressed in placement. Last time, it was the top four and now he is top eight again, adding more fuel to reason Ash being a less effective trainer in Unova than the other regions. At least one can be glad Cameron didn't win the tournament and be slightly pleased the title of victor went to someone far less of an idiot. One must have to wonder if Ash would have won if he used the full six and how the fight with Virgil would have gone.

  • Lokia: Not to mention that earlier in Arceus And The Jewel Of Life, fighting Kyurem wasn't just part of Keldeo being arrogant, but was an intended task in his path of becoming a Sword of Justice. Why were the Swords of Justice, a group focused on justice and peace, focused on a mon that was mentioned not to be evil at all? With Kyurem not being evil, it seems like it removes the only visible reason the Swords of Justice to even show interest in the dragon.
10:35:28 AM Dec 9th 2017
My DMOS has to be the fact that they expect us to sympathize with Team Rocket, even after they've crossed the Moral Event Horizon! I could go on, but I summed it up here.
11:58:35 AM Jan 13th 2013
People here take Pokemon WAY too seriously...
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