How come the Citadel doesn't have a character page?
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You are right, it should be here...I think we should move all the Maesters there...
Hmm, what do you think about this troper who is going around adding new, undiscussed and questionable pages for minute houses often with merely three (Reeds) or four characters (Snakes) who are secondary at best?.
It's borderline poor troping at least, and seeing that the user has been banned twice in the past for disruptive behavior does not improve the perception...
Edited by TrollBrutal
Can we seriously wait until the end of a season before moving characters to new folders? It gets incredibly confusing, especially since I've seen characters bounced around several pages over the course of a season.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
How about some Adaptational Heroism for Rickon Stark? It's a minor case, but in the books he becomes more wild and temperamental after most of his family leaves Winterfell, while in the TV series this is toned down to just a couple of scenes (telling Bran that everyone is doomed and aggressively cracking some nuts while in court). Also, him parting ways with Bran is a more emotional scene in the TV series.
I am Jack's Smirking Revenge
Separating Dothraki and Qarth
It didn't make much sense to combine Dothraki and Qarth, given that they're as unrelated as Dothraki and Slaver's Bay. So I took the initiative and made a separate Qarth page (the Lhazareen can be shoved in as a footnote under the Dothraki page).
I need someone to clean up the links though, I don't have Admin tools.
Also, someone please change the name from "Dothraki and Red Waste" to just "Dothraki". It wasn't even accurate this entire time when Qarth was in it: Qarth is NOT in "the Red Waste" it's on the OTHER SIDE of the Red Waste. No one lives in the Red Waste - that's why it's a wasteland.
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The point is simply that Qarth doesn't have enough to justify it's own page, it was there for half a season in Season 2 and then it's MIA. So I simply grouped it with the Dothraki Sea and the Red Waste.
Again "The show is not the books", in the show, Qarth is located on the Red Waste. The lhazareen are unmentioned. And that's it, so there's no reason to bring them in especially since Slaver's Bay has had three seasons dedicated to it, The Free Cities have greater prominence on account of Braavos.
....even in the TV show, they never said Qarth was "in" the Red Waste. "The rest of Essos" might be a better phrase.
I'm thinking, would it make more sense to move characters to different pages say, only at the end of a season? For one, it's very confusing for characters to bounce around like that. It seems odd to work harder to make things more confusing.
For another, it creates a self-fulfilling spoiler right off the bat. Not everyone is up to date episode by episode, so when a character jumps pages hours after an episode airs, it can be a spoiler in of itself.
Just my two cents.
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You are right. I wasn't too pleased with all the shuffling around here. It started when the House Lannister page got too stuffed and they moved Cersei and Jaime to the Royal Court page, which was fine because that was a problem. The Faith of the Seven needed a new page since its a brand new organization and it has a central role. Since so many cast were moving to Essos it became bigger and needed to be split. So those changes were fine but I am not okay with Tyrion being moved around or even Jorah and Varys for that matter. I think those three could have stayed in their old places. I see no reason why Jorah is no longer part of Dany's story, Mormont is likewise still there in Book!Dany's cast page.
I also want to migrate Reek's page and merge it with the Theon entry. Theon has been Theon for three seasons, he only becomes Reek at the end of Season 3 and enters Reek mode as Season 4 opens. For most of the show he was Theon. In the Books page, Theon and Reek are one entry only. Right now, we have too much overwritten stuff. But I'll wait for the season to end before doing that re-migration.
Fairy of Tropes
The added folders for the general tropes of each region are making the page look awkward. How about a new page for all the regions together?
Edited by qazwsx Hide / Show Replies
There's also some questionable overlapping with Houses tropes, in a metonymic way, since the Paramount houses and their regions are very intertwined. This is most evident with the one-house Iron Islands
Also the TV show doesn't quite go into the world-building stuff as the books did. Thats Adaptation Distillation and all that, so its all kind of simplified and flattened. Stuff like Brackens and Blackwoods are important in ASOIAF but not in the series so its not necessary to go too much into detail I feel.
qazwsx moved it to a new page and is doing a good job culling those house vs region tropes, I have to say.
Very neat now
Edited by TrollBrutal
I know he's been there for ages... but shouldn't Mycah be with the Stark retainers rather than the independent characters?
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He appears for one episode, and not connected to anyone other than Arya, so no? He fits the Independent Characters page of important minor one-episode but plot significant appearances. Lommy Greenhands is also a nonentity but he's important to Arya in Season 4, Episode 1.
Personally, The Faith of the Seven could use its own subpage, it can be cut out of Independent Characters to form a new page I think.
Someone is clearly mistaking the show's character page for the book's one and adding entire sections on characters that have been never named or even mentioned on screen. Please, take them out.
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Sure, feel free to do so.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Considering their individual pages are pretty small, what if we merge the White Walkers and the Children onto one page as Supernatural Beings?
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That's a great idea.
Also would be cool to for the Three Eyed Raven, include both a picture of the bird and a (spoilered out?) picture of his true appearance.
Edited by 71.57.52.184 Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Okay, images. Lots of image changes keep being made and switched back. Obviously I'm in favour of having nice, 350x250 images as opposed to a bunch of images that so far have been:
A. Sized randomly; B. Screencaps that have either been stretched or are poor representations of the character; C. Promo pics that have been adjusted through photoshop or whichever.
I hate to be a dick about this, but can we make some kind of decision?
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It's probably best if you make an Image Picking discussion over this.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Why the hell even have spoilers if we're going to move the Frey section from the Tully page to the Lannister page in the aftermath of The Red Wedding? Especially since the Boltons are still on the Stark page?
Always expect the worst and you can only be pleasantly surprised. Hide / Show Replies
(NOT a book spoiler): The Freys are still technically Tully bannermen too. They belong on the House Tully page. Not to mention that the House Lannister page is getting a bit bloated.
Maybe we should structure it like the character pages for the novels and make a "Other Major Houses" page (or something like that) for any family who isn't a Targaryean, Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, Greyjoy, or Martel, and indicate their allegances- like it would say for House Reed "sworn to House Stark.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Perhaps "Major Noble Houses"? In any case, I support that idea along with a unified Baratheon page.
Regarding Shireen...
- Adaptation Dye-Job: Black-haired Shireen is blonde in TV canon, making this also an example of...
- Adaptation-Induced Plot Hole: In the books, Ned realizes Joffrey and his siblings are bastards because a child with a Baratheon parent will always have black hair.
To put it bluntly, this is false. The supposed photo of Shireen floating around Google seems to be of Kerry in her past role of Les Misserables with some photoshop on her face. There is actually a brief shot of Stannis embracing Shireen in one of the trailers and she has dark brown hair like the three Baratheon brothers, even though the actress is blonde in real life.
Edited by NaramSin
I suggest renaming "The White Walkers" to "Supernatural Creatures". Then we could put there the WW, wights, dragons, giants and in time the COTF. The Direwolves might belong there too.
Edited by NaramSin
A batch of big HR character pictures was released here: http://www.seat42f.com/game-of-thrones-season-3-cast-photos.html#23
Consider them as possible basis for the new characters images when we get enough tropes about them.
Can someone index House Tully or tell how to do so, please?
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The indexing system isn't always reliable. Sometimes a null edit to the index page helps it kick in. Fixed.
That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.
It looks like there's some inconsistence with the page type. Most other houses are marked as subpages, but Tully is marked as examples. Hmmm.
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Thanks to whoever did it. I think it would be good to give the Royal Court characters its own page. IC is beginning to become quite long/crowded.
I wonder if we could interpet the part where information from the books that is "useful for casual troper's understanding" is put under hottips less liberally. I mean, are people really interested to know that Jeyne Westerling was barely a character in the books, and the show expanded her into some sort of The Medic / Action Girl mix, or that Cleos Frey was as much a non-entity in the novels as Alton Lannister on the show, but died differently?
Edited by hollygoolightly
Jon Snow and Benjin Stark are both part of the Stark family and the Night's Watch, but they're each in a different folder. Shouldn't they either both be in Stark or both be in the Night's Watch?
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Night's Watch. When you join the Night's Watch you effectively renounce any family and house links.
It's particularly interesting to look at how the adaptation has handled the characters- some have Kicked The Dog a lot more than in the original books, some have had more Pet the Dog moments to make them more likeable; almost all the really UGLY characters (Tyrion, Brienne, Sandor) have been upgraded with Adaptational Attractiveness while others (presumably because of the universal age-up) have arguably become LESS attractive. Things go both ways with wild abandon. For example:
- Jaime: Seriously Took A Level In Jerkass- his murder of his own cousin during his escape attempt in 2x07 makes him not only a Kingslayer but also a kinslayer which is arguably one of the few things worse.
- Cersei: Her My Beloved Smother tendancies have been toned down considerably- arguably her most irritating trait in the books was the way Joffrey, despite being an obvious Complete Monster to everyone else, could do no wrong in her eyes, being "wilfull" at worst. In the series she openly admits he's a lost cause and is driven to tears by her admission of what a monster he's become, even driving Tyrion to try and comfort her. Also some of her villainy has been transferred to Joffrey, most notably The Purge of Robert's bastards. They seem to be aiming to make her far more sympathetic than the completely unlikeable version from the books.
- Joffrey: God, where do we begin... Apart from The Purge there's the scene with the 2 prostitutes, his attempt to order all the peasants present when he got hit with flying shit executed rather than just ordering Sandor Clegane to find the man responsible, the battles to the death at his nameday celebration... they seem to be going out of their way to make a Complete Monster even worse, although since he's older in the adaptation there's more leeway for this.
- Tywin: Hard to say so far, but his relationship with Arya at Harrenhal (arguably the most extended section of new material so far) is mostly one big Pet the Dog moment, especially when he confides in her about how he dedicated years to helping Jaime learn to read despite his dyslexia.
- Catelyn: Catelyn from the books.◊ Catelyn from the TV series.◊ While aging-up the cast was important to reducing the amount of Troubling Unchildlike Behavior and Harmful to Minors material, there is a price to pay.
- Nedd: On the other hand, when you cast Sean Bean to play a character described as "plain" things can go the other way as well.
- Loras: In the books, he went mental when Renly was killed and killed the two Rainbow Guards who were supposed to be protecting him, then when he met Brienne again at King's landing in book 3 he accused her of the crime and almost killed her on the spot. In the series the guards are killed by Brienne in self-defence and Loras actually defends her in her absence when Margaery accuses her of the crime, even correctly apprehending that Stannis was responsible. He's a MUCH more reasonable character.
Like I said, just food for thought. It's interesting the way things are all over the shop in these instances.
Edited by ArcaneAzmadi Always expect the worst and you can only be pleasantly surprised. Hide / Show Replies
The thing is, this comes perilously close to being nothing but an endless comparison between the books and the series. It's clear that in an adaptation, characters will be different. Anyone should expect this. The entry is about the TV show, not the books, and we've known they would diverge, and I'm sure they will diverge even further. To me, there seems no need to list all these differences, and it does have a strong whiff of They Changed It, Now It Sucks! in many cases.
Is there domestic abuse really present in Cersei and Robert's relationship? The one time Robert hits her he immediately quips that "that wasn't kingly", suggesting that it is an extremely rare occurrence. My impression is that Cersei had genuine feelings for Robert when she married him (or maybe was just a naïve princess thinking that hers was the perfect marriage of all time, a la Sansa) and her bitterness was born when she realized that Robert still loved Lyanna and would never feel the same for her. Robert's constant drinking and whoring only made her dislike worse, but that doesn't mean Robert was physically abusive to her.
BTW, while on the Lannisters I took out the bit above Momma Lannister's house and hottipped a bunch of other info regarding the family's relationship with King Aerys. Please, try not to throw book-only knowledge freely people.
Edited by NaramSin Hide / Show Replies
It definitely is in the books... Cersei teaching Joffrey that a king should not strike his lady could actually be a hint that Robert hit her more often on the show, too, but it's never made "official", so to speak.
Edited by hollygoolightly
Desolved the "Smallfolk" folder, since it seems a bit arbritrary to order these characters after their societal status, when they are connected to various characters or institutions otherwise, or overlap with "Independent characters."
Moved Marillion, Tobho Mott and Ros and the other sex workers to "Independent characters," except for Shae, whom I moved to Lannister Retainers.
In addition, moved Gendry, Hot Pie and Lommy over to the Night's Watch, as they are technically recruits. Should more of Robert's kids show up on the show, we should probably think about putting them into the Baratheon folder.
Edited by hollygoolightly Hide / Show Replies
Someone moved them later to IC. I like this option better, since they never make it to the Wall let alone join formally the Night's Watch. I moved Lommy with them for this reason and put them under a separate folder inside IC.
Also removed:
- Adaptational Villainy: In the book, Cressen's motive is not only protecting the Faith of the Seven, he wants to stop Melisandre from influencing Stannis to commit fratricide on Renly. This isn't stated on TV, so it looks like it's just about religion.
Cressen does show concern for Stannis in the show when he tells Davos that Melisandre is pushing him into waging a war he can't win and that they have to stop her. The show might have toned a bit the "substitute father" aspect from the books but I don't think that makes Cressen a villain.
Edited by NaramSin Hide / Show Replies
I was surprised to see that too. If anything, Melisandre is the one probably getting Adaptational Villainy.
Hodor
Azor Ahai
Wondered where Talissa should go. She's supposedly from Volantis (which is in Essos), but is going to be interacting with Robb which would suggest she should be put under the Stark folder.
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I'll say we refrain from adding her till we see more of her in upcoming episodes. The actress has been reported as playing a character with a different name prior to showing up in the show; if we sum that to her behavior in this one aired scene it can be considered that "Talissa" is lying about her identity.
Good idea about waiting. As a book reader, I have a guess where to put her under House Lannister is either a member of a vassal family or as a Lannister herself], but probably good to wait.
Hodor
Question: How should we treat tropes that, given what we know about the books, are either completely irrelevant (Arranged Marriage in Arya's section - that's never, EVER gonna come up again, GUARANTEED) or just plain false (Ambiguously Evil in Walder Frey's section)?
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Arya's Arranged Marriage, while irrelevant, counts as an invoked trope and should stay. But I agree that Frey's Ambiguously Evil should go, if only because an old pedophilic polygamist has to be Obviously Evil.
In general, however, it's policy to not judge the tropes in function of the books until the events there have been surpassed since there are developments that happen only in the TV series and there was no way you could see them coming from the books, such as half of the Dothraki characters being killed off by now or Bronn becoming head of the Goldcloaks.
Still, there are certain events that MUST happen the way they do for the story to not diverge COMPLETELY from the books, i.e. The Red Wedding, which cements Walder Frey as EVIL EVIL EVIL.
Again, that's book knowledge, and this is the article of the show. If it has not happened in the show is does not figure, period.
So, any idea about what section Jaqen Hgar (sp?) should be in?
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Probably "Independent Characters," though one could make a case for "Smallfolk" - unless that only applies to Westerosi people.
What happened to Theon and the rest of the section on House Greyjoy? Was it deleted?
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From the looks of things, House Greyjoy characters just never got their own page when the main character list was split.
Ravenous Sophovore
Removed:
- Can't Hold His Liquor: Subverted. Tyrion seems to be able to put back a lot of alcohol, despite his small stature.
Because subversions of this trope aren't really remarkable.
- Girl on Girl Is Hot: Her maid Doreah teaches her how to please her husband.
Because that's an in-universe trope. It only counts if another character finds it hot.
- Our Dwarves Are All the Same: Subverted. Though this is a fantasy series, Tyrion is just a human with Dwarfism.
That's not a subversion, he's not a dwarf in that sense. Don't shoehorn tropes, please.
Because it's a redlink and I can't find a similar trope.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up. Hide / Show Replies
I suppose the last one is a really poor phrasing of The Dog Bites Back, but I'm not sure who would be Tyrion a dog to (Tywin? I would consider the scene in the war camp Calling the Old Man Out, but not that).
Ravenous Sophovore
Now that the second season is almost out and the DVD is available, how do we want to handle spoilers on this page? The way I see it, we have three options:
- Make it a "spoilers off" character sheet, and warn people in bold at the top.
- Only allow things from the current season to be spoiler tagged, and remove spoiler tagging for season 1.
- Spoiler tag everything spoiler-y, regardless of season.
I personally would prefer the first or second option, myself.
On that note, we also need to decide how much to spoiler on the main page: current season only, major spoilers + current season spoilers, or all spoilers?
Edited by ccoa Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up. Hide / Show Replies
Going to ask for opinions one last time, and if no one replies I'm going to pick an option since it seems people don't care.
Edited by ccoa Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
I'm all in favor of adding character pictures, but why did the house sigils change? We had nice, stylized, uniform depictions which made the page nicely coherent, and now they're a bit grainy and some appear to be stretched. Was there a particular reason I don't know about behind the choice?
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Gotta take the blame for that one. I actually put the original stylised ones up in the first place. The reason was I wanted to try out more realistic versions of them, i had a look at them today and they looked pretty poor in hindsight. What madness possessed me to change them i'll never know, since they looked badass. They're back to their original glory with a better Tyrell image too.
The planet is fine. The people are f**ked. - George Carlin
No worries! They look great, and were an awesome idea in the first place, so props.
Where did the sigil images come from that are up on the page now? They look pretty badass.
I'm wondering if it's possible to take some of the one-shot characters out, especially seeing that we will get masses of new ones later on. I'm thinking especially of Osha's wildling pals and Ros's "training partner" from Littlefinger's brothel.
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And I've started doing exactly that, cutting Robb's mostly non-verbal bannermen and all of Tyrion's mountain clan entourage except for Shagga. I know most of them have roles in the books, but we don't know if that is the same on the show. If it is, we can just add them back, and again, it is not like this page will lack for content, either way.
Ravenous Sophovore
In regards to the mass un-spoilering:
We recently had this discussion and it is perfectly okay to spoiler a trope name if it's an inherent spoiler. I strongly think that death and betrayal tropes, at the least, need to be spoilered. Those are pretty major events to be spoiling.
Azor Ahai
This page and I think the main one too indicates that Robert's death was in revenge for him striking Cersei. Is this from the books? Because while it's strongly implied that Lancer had malevolent intent in giving all that wine, it seems just as plausible so far that Lancel did it because Robert was a huge jerkass toward him, and the motivation being noted on the page isn't really hinted at unless I missed a scene.
Edit- not sure I'm spelling the name correctly.
Edited by Jordan Hodor
Added a slew of new characters that are important to follow in the series. And cripes, there are plenty of them.
Tried to only add tropes that have been revealed on screen in the show.
FYI, Image Pickin disapproves
of images with black borders.