Saint Cyprian Academy Of The Magical Art's

About the starves. What things could, aside from different types of wood (or should they be made of metal?) could be used to individualize starves?

And remember back in the good ol' days at the beginning of the thread. I mentioned that one of the characters was a mundane friend of Cyril and Mel who attempts to fool the staff and student body that he's a warlock since well, if you discovered that your two best friends posses fantastical magical powers and there was a whole school of kids with similar powers wouldn’t you want to check it out? Well you wouldn't but you have the advantage of knowing exactly what goes on there. He's basically goes straight from wondrous amazement to pure terror when he begins to experience real sorceral society.What I'm asking is do think it would be possible for him to remain undetected for any significant length of time? Say if he never lets himself into a lengthy conversation with anyone in order to avoid a deadly faux pa due to his lack of knowledge, and if he restricted himself to crowds and the back of class rooms where he can observe the school's day to day life without being noticed. And maybe he always stays close to Cyril and Mellissa so that they can do magic that he can pass of as his own when need be.

Sound workable?

Ooh, ooh! Carving. When the students start out, their staves are plain, thick and smooth, except for perhaps a family crest or their initials on the upward-pointing end. As they move through their education and through life, their magical experiences - and, by extension, their staves' experiences - cause the wood to morph and acquire carvings, just like how playing through Pokemon causes your monsters to evolve. By the time a witch is finished school her staff would be basically a magical yearbook (do you guys have those? Oh, and yeah, we call school outings 'field trips' despite them being more about entertainment than gaining real-world experience), and she'd be given her first 'adult' staff as a grad gift.

Re: metal staves - Here's an idea; because it was once alive, wood works well with magic. Almost too well sometimes - especially when the one carrying it is a temperamental teenager. Combine this with the great expense in acquiring a traditional staff (the spells placed on the wood could be heavy-duty ones that only specialists can be trusted with), and it's understandable that some parents would prefer their kids to start out with an aluminum one - or maybe an electrum (gold and silver mixed together) one, if they want to make an overt statement that We Can Afford A Traditional Staff Just Fine, Thank You Very Much, But We're Not Insane Enough To Give That Much Power To A Child.

Of course, there are two main reasons families would want their kids to have a less powerful 'focus'. On the one hand, they could think the kid is incompetent or 'sensitive', and they're coddling them; this is why kids with wooden staves tease them, and why a lot of parents still give their children traditional weapons - "You're never going to learn how to channel your power effectively if I give you a damned pretend staff!"

On the other, they might be afraid the child's power could boil over at any second and kill them. Maybe Cyril has a metal staff...?

(... XD I just remembered something. The Jingu Bang. How's that for a Chekhov's Gun? Maybe your muggle tagalong-pal isn't a muggle at all.)

Speaking of him (her?), since we know Achilles attended St. Cyp's (somehow I have this image of him as a very quiet and timid Badass Normal), it's established they let disappointments take classes alongside mages - hell, knowing these bastards they probably encourage it; easier than drowning the little stunties, amirite? So our unfortunate friend might be discovered to have no powers, but permitted to stay with a lot of bullying, because when teachers see a non-magical kid at a magical school, they don't think 'normie intruder'; they think 'disappointment'. And his ignorance regarding society could be explained away by, "My magical parent died when I was young and the non-magical one raised me to be normal because (s)he didn't figure I would be accepted to St. Cyprian's anyway."

Those sound cool, the thing about the carvings on the staff "maturing" especially.

This actaully gives me an idea for a cover (this assumes that there will be more than one book) the first book's cover is just a plain staff, but over the course of the series the staff on the cover becomes ever more ornate. Sound cool?

Also maybe the starves could have precious or semi-precious gems imbedded in them. Different types of gemstones have been assigned unique traits like "strength" "flexibility" and other stuff like that in many cultures. The virtues that the particular gem is symbolic of may indicate what "schools" of magic, the staff (and since most starves are tailor made, the owner) has an affinity for.

Also maybe the origin of the wood affects the staff. For example maybe a young sorcerer with a lot of raw power but very little precision (like Cyril) would get the most benefit from a staff carved from a branch severed by a bolt of lightning. This sorta thing would probably make the cost of a traditional staff skyrocket; meaning a lot of sorceral families would opt for a metal one.

And your ideas on metal starves vs. wood starves make a lot of sense. And yes I imagine that Cyril would probably be given an electrum staff, in fact maybe he could recieve a wooden staff near the end of the book (or a later one) once he's gained his parents trust that he wont lose his and unleash the apocalypse on those around him.

And since I'm a idiot understand The Jingu Bang would have to do with the tag-along kid secretly being a warlock. Could you explain?

And your right to think that Achilles is quiet and timid... around students. The other teachers are '''petrified''' of him and for good reason. Here's a scene I really like, Justina is trying to bully him into giving some students a bad grade simply because she doesn't think they've donated enough to the school and is reering up to strike him down with all her might and what does he say? "You spent the best years of your life learning nasty comabt magiks, me I learned to box!" *Punch*

And I thought up a covenant dream for Cyril, and I should mention that he had it when he was eight and that day his father admitted that he didn't want Cyril to become a warlock i.e to be a sorceral "disappointment". It starts out as a replay of the conversation where this came up but everything begins to assume a more "mythic" tone, the dialouge the manerisms the atmosphere the whole thing wouldn't be out of place in a Roman play. The father morphs into some kind of pantomime tyrant and attacks Cyril, eventaully Cyril pins down dad-monster and prepares to take a knife to his "special place" but he gets a horrifying vison of him as an adult eating his children. He then puts down the knife and he wakes up empowered. Sound cool?

Haven't thought of one for Melissa but I do plan on her waking up to her future selves sitting on her bed reminiscing about it.

EDIT: I wonder what magical people use for money? We established that they can just conjure up mundane money.

edited 2nd Sep '10 2:57:29 AM by Zolnier

You know how I mentioned that St Cyps has a few mundane staff to teach things like english and maths? Well I had this idea that during the school holidays or any other time when they're of duty they have a set of implaneted memories of working at a normal (but rich, to explain their wallet exploding pay checks) boarding school. When they "clock in" they have their real memories restored, what the teachers themselves think about this system varies. Sound interesting?

Voila, tree symbolism. Very interesting, isn't it? Maybe someone blessed by a forest god could have aspen-dryaad attendants, since the grove would still be standing even with the branch taken for his/her staff gone. And the Wiccan character you were talking about, the one who the others see as the living embodiment of the Department of Redundancy Department? (S)he could have a palm staff because it symbolizes peace and opportunity and all that positive stuff, not to mention the environmental benefits (palm trees get cut down and wasted when they stop producing palm oil).

The 'nonmagic' kid could be unaware of mythology (not exactly a stretch when you realize there are kids who, thanks to Disney, grew up thinking Hera was Herakles' mom), and in the aftermath of his/her sudden sorcery, when people ask if (s)he ever had a covenant dream, (s)he could be like, "What? You mean that dream with the monkey is actually about something?!" 'Cause really, Sun Wukong isn't exactly the most serious god around. Anyway, part of the point of the As-Thou-Wilt Gold-Banded Staff, to give an approximate translation, is that it appears worthless to everyone but the person who's meant to have it; (s)he could buy it at a waterfront junk shop for a couple bucks just to fit in when (s)he gets to St. Cyp's. You could drop hints throughout the year that the pole and the friend are both more than they seem - an explosion in Potion-Brewing 101 where only Achilles, the speed-god-affiliated kids and (s)he managed to get out of the way in time, for example.

Oh, I guess if I'm going to talk about Wukong so much I might as well give you his stats as far as positives and negatives of a covenant with him. He's basically the god of Red Oni Practical Jokers; he's a magician who also happens to be a monkey and a martial artist, just 'cause that's how Taoism rolls. He can fly, defeat anyone in a fight when armed with the Jingu Bang, make clones out of his hair, and... basically do all this shit. He's essentially a flying brick with magic. Drawbacks include his tendency to encourage kids under his protection to act without thinking and maybe some World-of-Cardboard moments.

I like the dream; very evocative.

edited 2nd Sep '10 10:59:21 AM by FurikoMaru

What kind of trees do you think would be the source of the wood for Cyril and Melissa's starves? Also what do you think Mel's covenant dream should involve?

Does this sound like a good chapter? A parent-teacher conference thing at the school and it's mandatory for all parents to attend, yes that includes Cyril and Mel's dads.

Also you know how Headmaster Anderson is insane? What could be a good way to deconstruct Funny Schizophrenia.

Also I've checked out a lot of Norse Mythology stuff but I can't seem to find a motivation for Baldur to try and start a sorceral mundane war. The guy's like the Canon Sue of the Norse Pantheon. Your a mythology buff, can you think of a reason?

edited 3rd Sep '10 7:47:23 AM by Zolnier

Western Red Cedar is the absolute best-smelling wood in the world. Someone ought to have a staff made of it. But for Melissa I suggest hazel, going by the symbolism mentioned on that page I linked to.

Cyril is a bit trickier; I guess it depends on how you want to play the scene where he receives it. If you want it to demonstrate that his parents trust him now (and, more importantly, he can trust himself), you can have his staff be made of elder, which signifies harvest and the death/rebirth of the Celtic year but also symbolizes healing, or maybe white poplar, a tree which is associated with time - which might give you meat for a second book. If, on the other hand, you want him to defy his patron a bit, he could get a sceptre carved from a fir tree, meaning freedom from the cycle of death and rebirth.

I dunno, maybe it's just a foreigner-thing, but if you've got staves in Australia I figure one of 'em has to be made of eucalyptus; it's the first tree I think of when I think of your country.

Parent-teacher conferences are a neat idea, but how does the nonmagic kid get around that one?

Oh my poor dear Zol. Baldur isn't like the Canon Sue of Norse legend; he is the Canon Sue of Norse legend. To the point that just saying that means there's no point in spoiling his name anymore.

I figure your best bet is to play up his similarity to Jesus (he just wants to help!) but make him kind of loopy in the head (magical people are mean, so let's get rid of them! Then the nonmagic people can live in peace! :3)

Deconstruction of Funny Schizophrenia? Give him actual schizophrenia; paranoid delusions, refusal to make eye contact, odd facial expressions, black-and-white view of morality, poor hygiene, occasional aphasia-like spacey-ness, and hearing voices (in this case they could actually be gods or spirits and he could have lost the 'shielding' that other warlocks have that allows only their patron's voice to get through). Research the disease in full, and give it to him. And make a lot of characters still consider it funny.

Oh, Mel's dream? Would she have seen Macbeth at any point in her childhood? Maybe a cousin's high school performance? 'Cause Hecate's in it; rather memorably, actually - gives the witches a tongue-lashing for showing off in front of a Christian who's never going to reimburse them. Maybe after she's done with those three Melissa is the spirit who waits for her in a foggy cloud. Or maybe Melissa is one of the witches and has to stand up for herself in order to meet Hecate's expectations of what a seer should be.

edited 3rd Sep '10 12:37:18 PM by FurikoMaru

About the Western Red Cedar... I know if only we had a Scent Porn trope. And I was thinking hazel but there were a few other wood types involving the underworld, death stuff like that but yeah hazel sounds most fitting. And I'll give Cyril a Elder staff for the same reasons you suggested, and because I have an excuse to make a Deathly Hallows joke. And funny you mentioned you mentioned time because I was planning on having the second book (if there is one) be about time traveling, courtesy of Cyril's Saturnian patronage, through Saint Cyprian's history. That one will be narrated by Cyril.

Yes there'll be someone with a eucalyptus staff, I think if I didn't include at least one I'd be throttled to death by Steve Irwin's ghost or at least have to fall back on my right to claim British citizenship.

And I like the idea of Melissa being one of the three witches from Macbeth in her dream, makes sense and may be a bit of relief after reading about an eight year old nearly castrating his dad.

About the non-magic kid and the parent-teacher conference, maybe by then the school has figured out that he's a warlock (I wonder what the sorceral term for, a to use Potter terminology for a sec "muggleborns") and use the occasion to break it to the parents. And I could just imagine how Mel and Cyril's fathers would react to their academic progress. "Well Mr Mc Cullough" "Uh it's Fredrickson." "Who cares what matters is that your daughter's essays on nature versus nurture in relation to a child's divine patronage is some of the best work I've seen since your wife's essay on Leopold II of Belgium in her current affairs elective." "Wait did he say current affairs? How old are you." "Great now I'm going to have to give you the lifespan talk!"

Or Cyril's parents. "Your son has proven to be skilled in the more "raw" areas of magical talent, you know the epic flashy sort of stuff you see in mundane fantasy books, his preferred area of sorceral study isn't exactly subtle." "Oh God the summer's just going to be hell!" "My son's growing up so fa- I mean my husband is right this is a problem." (Winks at Cyril)

Wait just why would Cyril's dad let him hang around Mel so much, shes on his mother's side of the family and her father doesn't mind sorcery. I doubt that either would incline Cyril's dad towards letting the kid asociate with her.

And does this sound like a good explanation for Baldur's plan? Acording to some retellings of the Ragnorak legend Baldur will be ressurected after the fact to rule over a new and better world. Baldur has become a bit put out that this seems to not be happening. So he decided to arrange a world destroying war between sorcerers and normal people to serve as a sort of symbolic ragnorak; only his followers (and the followers of other gods like him) Jesus and.. I'm sure they're others would remain, the rest of humanity wouldn't be much of a loss they're just sinners. In order to start this war the mundane world would have to become aware of it's sorceral sibling, and so Baldur and his comrades found two children with a foot in each world; children who would dearly wish for the two sides of humanity to coexist. They then convinced Saturn and Hecate to bless the children, seers and time warpers work well together. They would make set up the circumstances to allow them to tear apart the secrecy policy and make humanity realize "Wow these guys jerks" and start the war. Or so they planned...

Hows this for a reveal? Mistress Smith has been working with the good yet evil gods for years. She was long ago offered a chance of survival in the renegade deites new reigme... as the devil. She would make sure none of the rightous inhabitants of this future paradise would never, ever wan't to turn away from their good and just lord. Anyway she's got Mel, Cyril and Achilles trapped in her office has just killed Anderson and declares that she will relinquish Saint Cyprian's blessings for that of one of the evil gods of goodness... well remember how having Ol' Cypy's blessing makes the school like you? Guess what happens when you [[Malevolent Architecture reject him. The school kills her and she faces the ghosts of Headmaster Anderson and all the students she used "Extreme Punishmant" on. They carry her of to the afterlife kicking and screaming, talking about what awaits her.

EDIT: A question spiraled out of control and turned into a ramble.

edited 5th Sep '10 8:33:48 AM by Zolnier

Do you think it could be interesting to incorperate a sequence narrated by Achilles. Think a look at the story from his POV would be cool?

edited 5th Sep '10 8:13:20 AM by Zolnier

I wonder what kind of education witches and warlocks get before secondary school, I'd imagine a lot of them would be home schooled, but maybe some magical families may send their kids to a normal school, since well could be sort of hands on training for keeping up the Masqurade And of course a lot of sorcerers would be to snooty to let their children keep company with the offspring of such low sorts. Maybe there could be sorceral primary schools that primally teach regular subjects with some magical theory (only theory since most of the students would be to young to have gained a god's blessing) and other stuff relating to sorceral society. Kind of like a mystical prep school. Sound plausible?

Personally I think it far more likely that they would hire tutors. Y'know, being snobs of the old school ("No gently-bred young lady..." etc.) rather than the new ("Well naturally we managed to get Charisma into Brighton Country Day, but I had to make the appointment to sign the papers the week of my ultrasound.").

I think an epilogue or prologue from his POV would work well, but anywhere in between might throw off the rhythm. And you wouldn't want too much inner monologue - presumably we should see his bad relationship with his sister before he 'reflects' on it over a paragraph or two.

Re: eucalyptus - Quite right, young man. I expect if I hadn't included at least one maple and one gold birch wand in that Harry Potter exchange-student deconstruction I wrote the corpses of William Mackenzie and Sir John A would've risen to lick me faster'n hell could scorch a feather. ^_^;

Hmm... how about throwback? As in, "Magic doesn't just pop up in mortal families! Clearly they're descended from a disappointment or somesuch thing." I was also thinking they might say 'mortal' just to hammer home the point that they are so speshul for being descended from gods.

As for magic showing up in normal families... well. It's not like gods just stopped having sex with humans at some arbitrary point; where's the sense in that?

Do you want the dad to be a complete bastard? If not I'd suggest him being willing to let Cyril get to know his relatives on humanitarian grounds. If you do, well, there's always the chance that they meet for the first time at school; I still sorta like that idea.

Baldur being miffed at not getting to rule Mary Suetopia sounds nifty. :3 As long as you keep him in character I'm all for it.

Think your right about having Achilles serve as the bookends.

Throwback sounds cool. Ooh how about "usurper" as in usurper of magic?

And I do want Cyril's dad to be sympathetic. He's meant to be a decent man and father, it's just that Mel perception of him is skewered by the fact that Cyril (if your best friend since you were little says someone's an arsehole, you'd be inclined to belive them)constantly makes it out that he's worse then Vernon Dursley. In fact "The Dursley" is what Cyril usaully uses when reffering to him. Really it's not magic so much that makes Cyril's father so uneasy about sorcerers, it their jerkass tendencies. He knows a lot about the terrible things sorceral society has done and he dosen't want his only child to turn out like that. I think a man like that wouldn't begrudge his son the chance to spend some time with someone that can relate.

Got a suitible term for a criminal witch or warlock? And what could be some phyisical traits that set sorcerers apart from mortals (yeah I think that's what their gonna call normal people) but still be subtle enough that you wouldn't be able to tell unless you knew what to look for.

And does sound like a good use of the first three chapters, after years of bullying for being "odd" Cyril and Melissa (during their last days at normal school they go to before heading of to Saint Cyprian's) pull of some epic magic fuled Xanatos Gambit(s) to leave the school in utter shambles as revenge. Could allow for some Establishing Character Moment(s) for the two by way of their individaul ways of going about this.

edited 6th Sep '10 6:02:24 PM by Zolnier

Ooh, usurper is neat! But it has an undercurrent of respect to it; a usurper is a cunning bastard who judo-flipped a dude out of his position - a throwback is a genetic freak. Maybe they use both words.

I like the idea of Cyril complaining about his dad - maybe Hecate or one of Mel's future selves could tell her at some point, "Listen, kid; when a boy's being abused by his father and has been his whole life, he doesn't notice he's being abused. He thinks of it as 'being punished' for being bad. Your cousin's just a complete drama queen."

They don't have to have their own word for criminal, I don't think; it'd be dangerously close to Call a Rabbit a "Smeerp" territory to give them one. They'd probably have their own word for transportee, though, seeing as your witches live a long time and some of them might still be alive.

That reminds me - if Mel's mom is old enough to have been writing about Leopold II in her Current Events class, does Mel have any siblings from previous marriages?

Traits that've been done before include moles/birthmarks, sixth fingers, and red hair. Me, I favour private differences, like a lack of toenails - definitely weird, but not conspicuous. Another cool one would be different shades of eyes - one green and one blue, or just one hazel and one barely noticeably darker. The vast majority of witches could have the more subtle variation, and the more blatant ones could be considered a mark of great beauty. Hey, maybe Smith was a looker in her day, what with her one eye light brown, and the other the colour of rusty water (can someone be melanin-deficient in one eye? I forget). Normal humans have different eye shades, too (my mother's left eye is lighter than her right if you stare at them long enough, for example), so this makes hiding in plain sight (okay, I'll stop now) easier.

This naturally allows you to have a WMG within canon that David Bowie is a warlock. That alone makes me approve.

Hmm, are you gender-dividing male and female magic-users by term? In the Middle Ages the word witch was unisex, though there were certainly more female witches than male for obvious reasons.

Ohoho, totally put that last day of school blowout in; every kid in the history of ever has wanted to do that, you'll double your word-of-mouth. But don't let them get entirely away with it - that'll get Mel called a Sue.

edited 6th Sep '10 1:36:40 PM by FurikoMaru

Yes I could imagine somebody calling the kid usurper kinda jokingly, if someone really wanted to insult him they'd use throwback.

Re: Cyril's dad- maybe after this exchange Mel could try telling Cyril "What the hell!?" and attempt to make him get over his daddy issues.

Melissa and Cyril do have a few half siblings about the place from their mum's past marriges. They actaully maintain contact with some of them; if they ever pop around for a visit ("Just because Mum's gone mental and married him dosen't mean I can't look out for my little bro/sis") they usaully pass them of to their dad's as aunts, uncles or second cousins.

The red right hands you suggested all sound like good idea. I keep getting giggles whenever I imagine Cyril or Mel's dad holding their newborn child, noticing the various differences and asking their spouse "So is this why you always wore socks uh "during"? And Justina was apparantly quite pretty (and still is, in an old way) and once gave a kid full marks and a distinction just because rather than write the essay on on symbolism in healing magic he just wrote complimants about her eyes over and over.

And what demographic should I aim this thing at?

And does this sound like a good chapter for a possible sequel, that may involve time travel. The characters find them selves in the prehistoric African Savannah, and they watch some early modern humans huddle around some primitive idol to a forgotten god; praying that they won't be wiped out by a hostile tribe. As the other tribes' warriors emerge from the distance, the child emerges. They say that many years ago that the child's ancestors were known (in the biblical sense) by the being they worship, and now the young one has been giving a means to protect his kin. The girl, using a crudely fashioned wooden poll to command strange and wonderful things, drives back the tribes enemies. Just when the characters realize what they're seeing, they return to the future.

Hey if pretty much all gods exist how do you reconcile incompatible cosmologies and claims of being "the one true god"? Clap Your Hands If You Believe is becoming cliche and comes with it's own problems (why does the universe work like that if nobody thinks like that?)

edited 7th Sep '10 9:38:45 AM by Zolnier

The gods have power, and don't know why. They don't even know for certain who made the world, if anyone did, or why. They just started watching humans and looking after them (or not, as the case may be) for the same reason humans wanna have kids; it's hardcoded into them. They don't normally have forms, but they figured out early that humans prefer visual aids, so they've adapted their guises to fit what's expected of them. Maybe even literally - maybe the covenant dream makes them look exactly like the kid always imagined, if they'd heard of them.

"Oh, this is very nice! I haven't had someone think to put me in modern clothing for ages; Ancient Greek dresses are so terribly unbecoming in hindsight. What a lovely eye you have for design - I'm surprised the Muse Lord didn't snatch you right up!"

"... Aphrodite?!" O.o "Um... I guess I thought the goddess of beauty would probably update her look."

"Quite right! My, you're a clever one."

And so on.

I think if you're going to have teachers this mean you should aim for the middle school demographic; they've got so little right now - the flood of Girls Being Bitchy novels is overwhelming. -_-

And I like the Dawn of Time thing. I think it would be cool if you didn't know it was Cyril watching it until the very end, where he could really quietly and solemnly ask to be taken home or something.

The idea of the gods not knowing how they came to be is very thematic.

And maybe I could stretch the dawn of sorcery thing over the course of the book; every other chapter being a snipet of this scene, could serve as good build up.

And what countries do you think sorcerers would have hogh populations of. I always pictured Greece as having a lot since the local gods really got around. Remember sorcerers like isolation but they also don't like being bored.

And how do you think that having a mortal parent may affect a sorcerer's status both social and metaphysical? Aside from the tendecey to get the blessing of strange gods.

And you know how Cyril and Melissa were bullied at their mortal school? What could be a good way of subverting the "Let's be sad because the kids with unnatural powers are being bullied" cliched?

And do you think that the school should have a handful of students that aren't witches or warlocks but rather other magical beings?

Oh I forgot to awnswer something. Witches are female warlocks are male and sorcerers are unisex.

edited 9th Sep '10 6:02:44 AM by Zolnier

What gods do you think would sympathize and ally with Baldur? I'd think Jesus would be among them.

And does this sound like a good ending? As the rouge gods watch the rightous chaos they've brought upon the world and fantazise about their pure and holy realm, a group of gods approach them. They are Hades, Anubis, Set, Loki, and ''Lucifer'' (speaking of him what gifts and banes do think he imparts on his followers?) the rouge ones ask if they're here to glory in the sinners suffering, something ''they'' would never do. The other gods reply? "No we're here to kick you in you rightous arse!" And they do.

And what do you think would happen during the conflict to sorcerers whose patron is a rouge god? Perhaps the other gods would depower them by blocking acess to those gods energies, some may be "adopted" by kindly gods. Lose their free will and become beserker warriors for their patrons?

edited 9th Sep '10 6:04:41 AM by Zolnier

About the David Bowie thing. Pretty much as soon as anyone does anything signifigant sorcerers will claim that whoever did it is one of them. Ned Kelly, J.F.K, Martin Luther King, Churchill, Abraham Lincoln, Charles Dawrin; going on the theroies of the average witch normal humans are a startlingly rare breed. And really if anyones a warlock it's David, either that or fay.

edited 9th Sep '10 5:59:06 AM by Zolnier

Would this be a good bit of backstory for Achilles? He was married once, to a witch. Their relationship was a happy enough, of course the ''problem'' Achilles suffered from, caused a bit of strife but they got through it. This all changed when they had a daughter; Achille's wife developed a massive fear of the child turning out to be a "disappointmant" (since there is no record of an astraly-impared reproducing she didn't know what to expect) like her father. This along with recuring nightmares revolving around having to take care of an aged and senile Achilles drove to take the baby and run; for the next nine years all Achilles ever heard from her was a letter that said that the girl had manifested powers as a witch and that she was sorry. In order to cope with his grief he got a job teaching the skill that had allowed him to survive in the sorceral world, potions. It was going well until his sister arrived.

And does this sound like a good reason why gods and sorcerer's don't like witches and warlocks becoming gods themselves. You see sorcerers get all their energy from the gods, so in order to reach immortality a witch would have to "kill" (if that's the right word) their patron break them down into their base magical energy and absorb it to Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence. Sorcerer's don't like it because when their god is destroyed they lose their power. The god Pan wen't down this way.

edited 11th Sep '10 6:28:05 PM by Zolnier

Does this sound like a good Bittersweet Ending for the trilogy, (I think a trilogy sounds about right) or not? Saturn get's tired of being a hated yet semi-forgotten, emasculated has been of a god and so destroys himself and let's Cyril take his place as a deity. Hecate does the same thing with Melissa, since being the last Titan among the Olympian's suck. So the two ascend to the Lands Of The Divine, forever seperated fromn their friends and family and strangers in a strange land. But hey being a god is kinda cool and at least they've got each over.

And maybe as well as starves and hand gestures there could be another sort of tool. One used for direct dealings with the gods, wether they be just asking for a larger cut of their patrons divine energy, or asking a god to directly intervene. I guess Cyril's would be a sickle but what would Mel's be? Something to do with divernation no doubt.

And if I go with the ending I suggested, how would Mel getting visits from her future self make sense? Since in that ending she wouldn't grow up to be a maiden, mother, and crone.

And maybe I could stretch the dawn of sorcery thing over the course of the book; every other chapter being a snipet of this scene - could serve as good build up.

I would advise against that. Has serious potential to irritate the readers. Ever listen to Good Omens fans bitch about the scenes with Adam and the Them?

And what countries do you think would have high populations of sorcerers? I always pictured Greece as having a lot, since the local gods really got around. Remember, sorcerers like isolation, but they also don't like being bored.

I would think Norway and Sweden would be good places for witchery - you can be as isolated as you want, but town's just a boat-ride away. Plus Odin's horny as a tomcat and they have specific cultural rules that say you don't turn people away from your hall at night - coincidence? I think not.

My own country has similar benefits to Australia (so much so that it was a minor meme at one point that Canada Is Cold Australia) in that you can live less than two hours' drive from Toronto and have all the privacy anyone could want. Oh, and there're vicious bugs and poisonous fruits and bears and lynxes and wild dogs and wolves that might want to eat you if it's winter and you're on their turf, but it's not like you have to live in the untamed places if you don't want to - we've got lots of room!

Upstate New York is a very witchy-looking place; absolutely gorgeous and nicely secluded.

Rumania would be good - if they can call Vlad III Tepes a good man and a folk hero they can put up with any shit the warlocks throw at 'em.

China would have a lot just by virtue of having a lot of people anyway. India ditto, even if they didn't clearly hint at a form of the covenant system in their own religious texts.

Peru, maybe? I don't know as much about South America as I should.

Nor about the nations of Africa, I'm afraid. It's shameful. -_-; I do know that the Shona people of Zimbabwe believe that the gods can possess skilled and wise mages.

Mongolian and Tibetan shamanism are also things I think you should look into on this point.

And how do you think that having a mortal parent might affect a sorcerer's status both social and metaphysical? Aside from the tendency to get the blessing of strange gods.

Well, maybe you should look up how children of mixed marriages are usually treated; it'll bring a note of realism to an otherwise fantastical story. Metaphysically, perhaps kids who get a decent grounding in science before they get a decent grounding in magic have Empire Strikes Back!Luke Syndrome - an inability to ignore the laws of reality without imposing new, arbitrary rules in their place (farmboy, you're already lifting shit with your mind - it doesn't fucking matter how heavy it is!).

And you know how Cyril and Melissa were bullied at their mortal school? What could be a good way of subverting the "Let's be sad because the kids with unnatural powers are being bullied" cliche?

Maybe Cyril's kind of an asshole? Maybe Melissa is used to sticking up for him and has gotten really good at insulting the kids back - or at least, as good as grade schoolers ever are at that kind of thing. You never see that in YA novels, do you? A hero who's actually good at banter?

Bully: Hey, Smellissa. Where's your retard cousin?

Melissa: -_- Rollin' off your mum.

And do you think that the school should have a handful of students that aren't witches or warlocks but rather other magical beings?

Maybe. What kind of mystical creatures are native to Australia? Or to whatever territory of the country this is set in.

What gods do you think would sympathize and ally with Baldur? I'd think Jesus would be among them.

Mmm... you'd piss off a lot of old people if you did that. On the one hand the troll in me says, 'Go for it, you'll triple sales'; on the other, my prudence and concern for your privacy say to make the Lamb at least neutral on the subject.

And does this sound like a good ending?

It sounds like a good part of an ending. Especially if the kids whose patrons are those gods show up to help - be a nice 'We're All In This Together' kind of thing, and we never really got that from Harry Potter even after the bloody hat told 'em to smarten up. Your main plothole is - why hasn't Odin started getting headaches as the future goes into flux, and why hasn't he given any of his 'padawans' a heads-up? Remember, he was given a very specific vision of Baldur dying, then being resurrected after Ragnarok to rule over the new world.

And that brings up another point - if say, Set kills Baldur honestly in battle instead of Loki doing it by treachery? Ragnarok doesn't happen, because the chain of events set off doesn't match up with the vision.

Nice job breakin' it, Dawn-God.

And what do you think would happen during the conflict to sorcerers whose patron is a rogue god? Perhaps the other gods would depower them by blocking access to those gods' energies? Would they be "adopted" by kindly gods? Lose their free will and become beserker warriors for their patrons?

Maybe it depends on the god. Baldur himself comes from a line of gods who make a habit of coursing through their worshippers' blood to make them feel no fear, but someone like Apollo comes from a hands-off tradition where you only provide the occasional miracle - the fun is watching your chosen hero get out of tough jams with their wits and skills alone. Maybe some of the nicer ones depower their followers so that they're effectively mortal, and so will survive the purge.

Achilles' backstory is very sweet and sad; I approve, so long as it doesn't come up until an appropriate moment.

And how's this for a reason why gods and sorcerer's don't like witches and warlocks becoming gods themselves: sorcerers get all their energy from the gods, so in order to reach immortality, a witch would have to "kill" (if that's the right word) their patron, break them down into their base magical energy, and absorb it to Ascend To A Higher Plane Of Existence. Sorcerer's don't like it because when their god is destroyed they lose their power - the god Pan went down that way.

Doesn't fit the numbers (math again! Argh!). If Rama is an ascendant, and St. Cyprian is an ascendant, and Jeanne d'Arc is an ascendant, and a bunch of other people are ascendants, just how many gods are dead? It would make more sense if becoming a new patron just takes more energy from the universe entire and only theoretical-physicist-mages get annoyed by it. Well, them and power-hungry sorceral families who want their lines to be influential.

Another good reason might be that friends and family lose part of you when you ascend; you become a little less than human at the same time you become a little more. Could just be a minor Uncanny Valley effect.

Does this sound like a good Bittersweet Ending for the trilogy, (I think a trilogy sounds about right) or not?

I think it sounds a little too close to Growing Up Sucks. And there's something forced about the idea of Chronos and Hecate both committing suicide. Plus, why would they give their powers to their two youngest covenant-holders?

And I say go with a quartet or a duology. Trilogies are fucking everywhere.

And maybe as well as staves and hand gestures there could be another sort of tool, one used for direct dealings with the gods - whether it be just asking for a larger cut of their patron's divine energy, or asking a god to directly intervene. I guess Cyril's would be a sickle, but what would Mel's be? Something to do with divination no doubt.

I'd advise against this, simply because if there's one thing I know about gods, it's that they don't give out their cell numbers if they can help it. They fucking hate to be called on for frivolous reasons (though what constitutes 'frivolous' varies from god to god - charming front-row tickets to a fashion show out of a teller is Serious Business to Aphrodite, but Freya would just give you a look. And then maybe cut your tits off).

No I haven't heard of that but you have yet to steer me wrong yet.

Those countries do make sense in regards to sorceral populations, especialy India; wouldn't be surprising if what could be called "modern sorcery" originated there. And I'll look into the shamanic practices of Mongolia and Tibet, great name for a college paper by the way.

And Cyril is kind of an arse, he improves a lot over the course of the over all story but still a bit hard to like to first. And I like Mel being the vocal one of the duo, I imagine her as the girl who sits there with a book and jibes in at the end of a conversation with some devastatingly witty remark. So her approach to bulies makes sense. I imagine Cyril being bullied would go down like this.

Bully: Hey Cyril, you pash Smellissa lately? Hey maybe that's happend before in your family, could explain those freaky fucking mutant eyes you guys sport.

Cyril: *takes out staff and strokes it a bit while giving the kid a look that could erase Classic Who Serials at fifty paces*

Bully: I bet Mellisa strokes your stick t- wait what's wrong with my face Mummy, Mummy, Mu- *Stops screaming due to lack of mouth*

Yeah Cyril's a tad overprotective of Mel.

Maybe a few kids at the school could try and befriend them because of the novelty vaule of kids with mortal, I've seen stuff like that happen.

And I like the idea of them subconciously obeying (to a certain extent) the laws of physics due to their upbringing. I'd imagine Melissa would suffer from this more, she paid more attention during the mortal portion of their education; Cyril just bewitched his spell books and other sorceral literature to look like text books. But Cyril has his own "unique" problem, you see try as he might Cyril can't do that much magic at home so he's got a lot of stored up divine energy. Basicaly often when he tries doing small things he puts to much power into the action, with truely spectaculer results...

We have plenty of Aboriginal myths regarding mythical monsters... none of them sentiant. Plenty of talking animals though, think It would be possible for Talking Animals to be students without it being really, really stupid? But there's always characters who are either full-blooded and half-blooded specimens of things like Dyrads, Demons, Angels, Faerie, merfolk things like that.

And you know how sorcerers are descended from demi-gods? Should a demigod feature in one of the books? What would be a good way of subverting the expectation that the demigod would be vastly more powerful than a sorcerer?

Do you think a really odious cousin or something on Cyril's dad's side of the family would be a good character for the school blowout chapters?

Yes I feel torn between my urge to push boundries and my Catholic guilt. Maybe Jesus could like sympathize but not bring himself to join in with the carnage.

And yes I do wan't to avert the "we say but don't do" thing that turns up in works involving teamwork and putting aside differences.

And yeah the Screw Destiny aspect of averting Ragnorak should be up front and clear.

Okay so we know we have to get Baldur killed but what would happen to his followers, simple depowering or death by metaphysical shock. If we manage to work in a character with Baldur as a patron elegantly enough it could make a epic Tear Jerker.

And gods and ascended sorcerer's suffering from Uncanny Valley sounds pretty fitting, a good price to pay for power and immortality.

A quartet sounds most appealing since I'm really fond of these characters and what to write as much as possible about them.

And how do you think magical power could affect puberty, aside from probably increasing sorceral power. I'd imagine it'd make it an... unpleasent experience to say the least.

And would it make sense for the intruder kid to be a low powered Flying Brick? Kinda like a scaled down version of his patron.

And does this sound like a good chapter? Melissa for the first and last time, has to appear to her future self to give her advice. She returns annoyed since she didn't get to learn anything juicy about her future.

And do you think there should be like bloodline gifts, powers so intwined in a family tree that no matter what patron you have you still posses some magical thing ascociated with the clan?

And ockay so the first things gonna be about Baldur's plot, the second about time travel the third will invlove a forgein exchange program and the final one will... I don't know yet.

Also do you think that it would be cheesy for Achilles to meet his daughter? Or become headmaster? Or would it be more fitting for him to be dicked out of this postion ''again?'

I do think Melissa or Cyril (or both) should ascend at least temporaly so we can see what a god can do! Opinions?

And yeah Odin's a bit of a plot hole.

edited 13th Sep '10 7:55:01 AM by Zolnier

Maybe a few kids at the school could try to befriend them because of the novelty value of kids with a mortal upbringing; I've seen stuff like that happen.

I could see that.

We have plenty of Aboriginal myths regarding mythical monsters... none of them sapient. Plenty of talking animals, though; think it would be possible for Talking Animals to be students without it being really, really stupid? But there's always characters who are either full-blooded or half-blooded specimens of things like Dryaads, Demons, Angels, Faerie, merfolk, things like that.

XD I just had a mental image of a merman with a general excuse from swim class because he can't help but 'breathe' water when he's immersed, and the chlorine in the school pool is toxic to him. Or a group of dryaads who're all from the same grove and can't help but text each other constantly and compulsively. Or just general 'kami'/spirits who may look like humans when it suits them but in actual fact are closer to animals or objects, culturally (ooh, a kami of Gorillas! A kami of Kangaroos! A kami of staves! A kami of car culture!).

Maybe the Fae kids get picked on because of that war you mentioned.

Here's something I don't think I've seen done in a modern-fantasy setting; 'demon' is a racial slur against spirits and Fae who do anything that falls under the heading of 'Inconvenient For Humans'. Satan in particular is miffed that his employees get slapped with a derogatory epithet just because they don't have time to babysit the shaved monkeys.

And you know how sorcerers are descended from demi-gods? Should a demigod feature in one of the books? What would be a good way of subverting the expectation that the demigod would be vastly more powerful than a sorcerer?

Make the demigods more powerful, but less intelligent. But I wouldn't put one in until the later books.

Do you think a really odious cousin or something on Cyril's dad's side of the family would be a good character for the school blowout chapters?

Depends. Are you putting them in just to put them in, or are they going to be useful after the Explosive Exit portion of the story?

Okay so we know we have to get Baldur killed, but what would happen to his followers? Simple depowering? Death by metaphysical shock? If we manage to work in a character with Baldur as a patron elegantly enough it could make a epic Tear Jerker.

Death by metaphysical shock would be a good way to remind your readers that this is an Anyone Can Die kind of universe. Lasting psychological trauma that only begins to get better in the third or fourth book would be interesting and an uncommon result of these kinds of things. And simple depowering is the easiest to write. Really, it's your call to make.

And how do you think magical power could affect puberty, aside from probably increasing sorceral power? I'd imagine it'd make it an... unpleasant experience to say the least.

Well, think about what puberty does to a normal human; we get clumsy, we start thinking about sex a lot, we get more sensitive. So for sorcerers, maybe that means the increase in magical power tests their prepubescent psychological 'limits', that were put in place when they were given their powers. Perhaps they have more bouts of accidental magic, because their nervous system is overreacting to perceived threats - instead of shoving away a bully, they nearly scar their best friend for laughing at them when a potion goes wrong.

For witches and warlocks blessed by charm and beauty gods, maybe this is when they start attracting desirable people by the dozen - intimidatingly so, since at this point in their development they aren't ready to be oogled by their 40-year-old math teacher. A magical physician could prescribe pills to suppress the Mystical Pheromones Of Doom.

And would it make sense for the intruder kid to be a low-powered Flying Brick? Kinda like a scaled down version of his patron.

I like it. But it'd have to be quite low-powered at first, so no one notices. It would make sense (s)he would have something like that, since (s)he's more closely related to a god than any of the other students (are you going to use that 'gods-are-still-gettin'-some' plot point?). Just make sure you don't have a Sue on your hands.

And does this sound like a good chapter? Melissa, for the first and last time, has to appear to her future self to give her advice. She returns annoyed since she didn't get to learn anything juicy about her future.

Don't do it unless you address what she needed advice for in a later book. Chekhov's Gun and all that.

And do you think there should be like bloodline gifts, powers so entwined with a family tree that no matter what patron you have you still posses some magical thing ascociated with the clan?

What, like in Naruto? Sure, as long as you don't give any one family Deus ex Machina eyes and shaft the others. I say make any gifts kids receive magically-enhanced versions of normal ways kids take after their parents.

My dad, for example, is a shit-disturber. He is an asker of unpleasant questions because he is obsessed with accuracy. I have inherited this tendency, though in a slightly different way. The magical equivalent of this would be having a built-in bullshit detector.

Or my mom, who's a very good singer, and whose contralto range I've also got; partially it's trained into me by always singing with her, but I wouldn't be able to hit the low notes in the first place if I weren't physically equipped with vocal chords of the right length. The magic version of that would be Disney-heroine magic - charming minor kami into helping you out of a jam with your pipes.

Other stuff like athletic prowess, the gift of gab, a dislike of being touched and so on are other things to consider.

Also do you think that it would be cheesy for Achilles to meet his daughter? Or become headmaster? Or would it be more fitting for him to be dicked out of this position ''again?'

I think he should get dicked out of it again. That would be a nice bit of meta-irony; the meanest professor at Harry Potter's school wants to teach Defence Against The Dark Arts and never gets the job because Dumbledore doesn't want to sacrifice him to Voldemort's curse on the position, and the nicest professor at Melissa and Cyril McCullough's school wants to be headmaster and never gets the job because the rest of the magical world sincerely wishes he'd just die already.

Maybe you could end the fourth book with the school getting blown up (or start it with that! Nice opportunity for parallels with Mel and Cyril's last day at mortal-school), and Mr. Smith founding a new school.

As for meeting his daughter, that might be a little cheesy. But if you don't do it at some point, one of your fanbrats will.

I do think Melissa or Cyril (or both) should ascend at least temporarily so we can see just what a god can do! Opinions?

Sure! Just make sure the threat is appropriate to such a leveling-up.

edited 13th Sep '10 1:54:10 PM by FurikoMaru

The concept of kami spirits sounds interesting, especially one for staffs. And I think I'm obliged to have a kangaroo one, unless I want to suffer at the hands of Ned Kelly's zombie.

And the close knit dryads sound cool, could serve as a weird collective Libby.

And the idea of demon as a term used to refer spirits that don't actively assist humans sounds really unique.

Maybe demigods could suffer from Crippling Overspecialization? A sorcerer is naturally inclined be talented in fields that his or her patron is lord over, but they can still practice other sorts of magic. A demigod can only do stuff that his divine parent can do.

Your theories on sorceral puberty make sense. What specific horrors do you think adolescence could have in store for Cyril and Melissa? For one I'd bet that Cyril's Anachronic Order thing would play up.

Scene: the students are getting their letters from home.

Cyril: Mel! I'm so sorry about your puppy!

Melissa: My puppy's fine *opens letter* Oh...

Does this sound funny? Due to their close bond Cyril and Mel can communicate telepathically... they hate it. They feel odd about it since they're not twins or lovers or anything they're just cousins so it's pretty odd they can do it. And just feels kinda unclean.

And the idea of witches and warlocks possessing magically magnified traits from their parents sound really cool. Like the vampiric gifts from Twilight without the sparkle stupid. Wouldn't it be ironic if Cyril got a trait from his father,wonder what it'd be?

And I still think that Achilles should meet his daughter at some point. What could be a way of subverting the heartfelt reunion thing?

And how's this for a series outline? The first book is about Baldur's plan as we know. The second one is about students turning up with their blood drained. The twist is that there is a vampire in the school but it's just a feral beast being used by some students (well they were students in the in the nineteenth century)to remain forever young, they feed the vamp them drain it of blood World Of Darkness style. The third shall revolve around a foreign exchange program leading to a international incident. The final one is about the school is collapsing, in response to this Cyril, Mel, Foaly (that's what I'm calling the intruder) Achilles and the Chronology Teacher (time travel professor basically, real name deleted from history) travel back through time to find the cause and solution. It shall end with Melissa and Cyril fiddling with time so Achilles becomes headmaster.

And does this sound like a good idea for a sort of companion short story? Cyril and Mel are like eight and just come into witchery, they celebrate this by making a few hops around the world. It would be narrated by various people who witness the results of their unconscious magic. Sound cool.

And should sorcerers use broomsticks and pitchforks to fly or is that goofy.

And while Foaly is more close to his divine ancestor than most it just means his family is too unestablished to consistently produce witches and warlock's consistently unlike say the Mc Cullough's that always bring forth sorcerers. You see one third of all humans are descended from a god, but if all these people were blessed all the gods would be spread so thin that they would cease to exist. So only bloodlines that do something that get's some gods interest become sorceral families.

And do you think that Foaly (can that be a first name by the way?)should be a jocky sort of kid? I mean in most stories where people try what he's doing they tend to be unassuming nerds, wouldn't be refreshing if he was The Big Guy instead?

Your theories on sorceral puberty make sense. What specific horrors do you think adolescence could have in store for Cyril and Melissa?

Melissa could start seeing glimpses of other people's futures - little annoying snippets that she can't control, and which don't give context. XD Maybe Hecate tells her that if it really bugs her, she should stop eating so much refined sugar and drink more water.

Does this sound funny? Due to their close bond Cyril and Mel can communicate telepathically... they hate it. They feel odd about it since they're not twins or lovers or anything they're just cousins so it's pretty odd they can do it. And just feels kinda unclean.

That sounds like an excellent way to kill mindlink fic right in the cradle. I approve. Mindlink fic can be done well, but it's rare. Like, funny-Family Guy-joke rare.

And the idea of witches and warlocks possessing magically magnified traits from their parents sound really cool. Like the vampiric gifts from Twilight without the sparkle stupid. Wouldn't it be ironic if Cyril got a trait from his father, wonder what it'd be?

Cool! That could play into their reconciliation at the end of the first book.

What's his dad like, aside from not wanting his son to grow up to become a bigoted idiot? What are his hobbies? What does he do for a living, and is he any good at it?

And I still think that Achilles should meet his daughter at some point. What could be a way of subverting the heartfelt reunion thing?

Maybe his daughter is fiercely protective of her mom and has made up her mind to hate him. Maybe she's really really outgoing and bubbly and the two of them don't have anything in common. Maybe she feels like she's already got a father - her patron. Maybe she's got no idea who Achilles is and he's okay with that, because she clearly has a full life without him in it ().

I like the series outline; seems solid - and I really like the way the first big thing the kids do is blow their school up, and by the end of the series they're putting their school back together.

If you're going with the demon = racial epithet thing, maybe vampires are just Fae who drink blood and go kinda nuts from it?

I don't think you should go with Foaly, just because there's a very prominent character in Artemis Fowl named Foaly and it might get confusing for readers of both. Foley? Fanley? Fanshawe? Farley? Fairlea? Frazer?

The hops around the world as seen by bystanders is adorable. Maybe that could be your epilogue to the series - end on a Magic is Awesome note. Or just a fun extra on your website.

And should sorcerers use broomsticks and pitchforks to fly, or is that goofy?

Why don't they just use their staves? They might was well.

And while Foaly is more close to his divine ancestor than most, it just means his family is too unestablished to produce witches and warlocks consistently - unlike, say, the McCulloughs, who always bring forth sorcerers. You see, one third of all humans are descended from a god, but if all these people were blessed, all the gods would be spread so thin that they would cease to exist. So only bloodlines that do something that gets some god's interest become sorceral families.

That actually reminds me of a thing I did in a Harry Potter fanfic - "Look, kid, this pureblood stuff's a total crock; all witches and wizards are descended from Atlanteans, because more than a quarter of all humans are descended from the Sea Peoples," etc. Pending approval on the numbers from a math-kid, I say it works.

And do you think that Foaly (can that be a first name by the way?)should be a jocky sort of kid? I mean, in most stories where people try what he's doing they tend to be unassuming nerds; wouldn't be refreshing if he was The Big Guy instead?

That could be good; are either Cyril or Mel athletic, or do they know him 'cause he grew up down the street from one of them and he still holds the best-friend spot? He should be at least a little geeky, though ('cause, y'know, the call of magic being real is obviously stronger than the call of finally winning the intermural soccer championship or whatever).

Questions:

What year is this set in? If you set it too late you have to confine all the magical stuff to an adjacent dimension so you don't have to explain why the military doesn't notice a huge concentration of energy within a blank space in the middle of the outback. Also, cell phones make a huge difference to any story, particularly a mystery.

What do Cyril and Mel look like? So far in my head I've been going on my own assumptions, but what say you, O Mighty Author?

edited 14th Sep '10 12:56:11 PM by FurikoMaru