Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Has there been a discussion on how some entries in Tekken count? It's not in the CM page or its sub pages, but it's there... Here's one excerpt from Bryan Fury's entry:

• Complete Monster: Bryan stands out amongst other Tekken characters for being an irredeemable asshole without any motivation beyond just being one for shits and giggles. He was a bad man while he was a cop(lord knows how he even came to that profession in the first place!), got worse on getting turned into a cyborg, and gleefully kicks the dog on a regular basis. Hell, in his 4 ending, he actually gets treated with compassion and human decency and he thanks his helper by MASSACRING HIS ENTIRE NINJA CLAN. He shows not a single iota of remorse for his actions, cares about no one but himself, is an irredeemable sadist and has the largest personal bodycount in the series(the Mishimas might have gotten more people killed, but Bryan does the deed himself).

... Well, does he fit? Looking at his entry, I think his entry is filled by someone who utterly hates him or something... Complete list here.

Also if we haven't discussed Kazuya (considered a CM in mainline games) and Heihachi (considered CM in Blood Vengeance), we can do so. I think if there's one thing that disqualifies Kazuya is that he still loved Jinpachi, and his ending in 5 is proven non-canon. While Heihachi, if situation demands, he'd take up the hero mantle, even if it's for his own ends (though only seen in both Namco X Capcom and Project X Zone... which wouldn't be canon...)...

But yeah, discuss?

edited 11th Oct '12 10:36:36 PM by ChrisX

Berserk Examples: This series has some of the worst Villains I've seen, and Gambino seemed to love Sys, and even if he didn't, he fails the heinous standard. The torturer is a better example, but I'm also inclined to say no because there are far worst things done, also, his actions are mostly seen as results, Gory Discretion Shot seems to be in place. Ultimately, I think he fails the heinous standard, but he comes closer than Gambino.

Whoa whoa whoa! Hold up on the Manfred Von Karma cut!

At no point in the series do we ever see him expressing any love or care for his family. He practically adopted Miles Edgeworth as a son, and used that to plot how best to get him framed for his own father's death. As for his daughter, we see exactly one scene with the two of them together and he treats her like an apprentice, nothing more, insisting that she be perfect to live up to the Von Karma name. Hell even when he gets executed Franscheska doesn't show any resentment or care towards Pheonix over it, even telling him that she doesn't care that he got him killed.

So really, I don't see this positive attributes you guys are talking about.

I have no idea what's being talked about here (still reading the individual pages), but I can nonetheless say that most of that paragraph is irrelevant - it would be how he felt about his daughter that mattered, not how his daughter felt about him.

Actually it is relevant; his daughter never showed nor implied any love towards him or treated him as anything but a mentor, and from the one scene in the series they share together Manfred treats her and Miles like they were apprentices under him, demanding perfection and never even giving a hint of love. Manfred's defining characteristic was that he strived for Perfection, and up and murdered a man for getting him a small penalty in court because it ruined his perfect record.

It's also for the Ace Attorney series of games.

My argument for him is that he's ruthless, he killed one man because that man showed he was using forged evidence which netted him a penalty in court (it should also be noted Manfred still won the case anyway, it was the fact that his perfect record was tarnished that Manfred took exception to), adopted (or practically adopted) his son Miles and proceeded to turn him into the exact oppose of his father (prosecutor instead of defense attorney, belief in always getting a conviction instead of protecting the innocent from wrongful accusations, a willingness to bend the rules vs sticking by them, etc.), treated him better than his own flesh and blood daughter, but still insisting he show perfection in everything, showing a complete lack of concern when a fellow prosecutor was murdered, only being disappointed because the murderer died as well so Miles couldn't get him convicted, engaging in a long career of manipulating or hiding evidence harmful to his prosecutions to get a victory, all before caping it off by orchistrating a murder and framing Miles for it, and when that gets defeated bringing up the murder of his father and manipulating the fact that for the longest time Miles thought he accidently killed his father, almost getting him to confess to it and get executed himself.

So in short, he's very henious (one murder, orchiestrating another murder and framing his adopted son for it, then trying to frame him for his own father's murder, total disregard for life and willing to hide evidence that could prove a person's innocence so he can maintain his perfect record, which in the Ace Attorney universe usually leads to them being executed), and has no on-screen redeeming features.

@3776

I don't think there were any complete monsters in Tekken. I looked at the page history and saw they were added long time ago and I predict that it was at the time of the misuse. However, I do admit they I don't know much about Tekken's story, so if somebody knows about the game more than I do; please tell me about it. Maybe I am wrong. For now, I vote no on all these characters. I also have to note that CAPSLOCKS are never a good sign.

By the way, I am glad that they are not on the main pages. I don't really care if they are on YMMV page or not, as long as they are not on the main page. The only thing that worries me is that some tropers might use it as an excuse to add them to the main page.

edited 12th Oct '12 6:42:43 AM by Krystoff

That's it exactly actually. If we leave bad examples on the YMMV sheets, not only do people inevitably try to add them here, but they spawn further bad examples, as people decide "oh that's what the trope means."

@3777

More or less my thoughts exactly. Gambino did care about Sys and only has a couple of bad acts to his name, so when compared to (thanks to the troper who first used this term) walking atrocity machine like Wyald, the horrifyingly selfish Griffith, or genocidal Ganishka, he doesn't look that bad. As for the torturer, this is probably one of the few cases where Gory Discretion Shot and Offscreen Villainy are one and the same, as Berserk certainly isn't short on torture scenes.

Anyway that makes three votes (plus my own) to cut Gambino and the torturer. For anyone who hasn't weighed in yet, this is a series where the hero once used a man's daughter as a human shield.

So I've cut Christopher Carrion and Princess Boa from the literature page, also I've put in a request on the Mass Effect discussion page for more opinions on Nassana and Saleon. So hopefully more votes will be coming in soon. If not then, since the votes for and against are about even, I guess we leave them on and switch out their entries for the rewrites?

EDIT: @3778: I have never played the Ace Attorney series, but I will agree that a villain merely having a family, but not being shown as interacting with them in any positive or loving way, is a pretty poor reason for cutting them. Unless there's proof that Von Karma cared about his family, I don't think he should get the credit for Even Evil Has Loved Ones.

edited 12th Oct '12 9:53:38 AM by OccasionalExister

@3764 Sigh... I'm really starting to dread any post in here that talks about Mass Effect. It's getting to the point where I'm glad I never played the game, because it's starting to feel like it invites more Internet Backdraft than the question "So, what's your favorite Final Fantasy game?" That said, I will respond.

I would vote to cut Saleon - given the amount of cruel genetic experimentation going on in the series, that strikes me as very low-level cruelty on the Mad Scientist and Mad Doctor scales. Just doesn't strike me as heinous enough.

Dantius also looks worthy of a cut. Bad Boss, yes. Proponent of We Have Reserves, yes. But I've seen so much worse described in the series.

Also, to be frank, both of the previous two are less heinous than that write-up of Lawson. It really looks like he does all that the others did and more.

@3768 If the only people who could ever see the discussion were the ones in this thread, I'd grant you that point. But we're in a public forum, and TV Tropes has already taken heat for its handling of the subject of rape. Even if it's not a problem now, it could potentially be an issue in the future. The best way to make sure it isn't an issue is to find ways to do our work without making it an issue.

Also, I note that you never said what series Craster is from, either.

For the two Berserk examples, I say to cut them both. Gambino is bad, but not even as bad as the pederast that he sold Guts to. For the torturer, beyond not being as bad as other obvious examples from the series (like Femto), there's also the fact that most of it is his description, so there's the Show, Don't Tell issue going on.

@3775 Actually, you cited the wrong post. I initially said Manfred qualified in @3404, but I felt your arguments were sufficiently solid, so I changed my mind in @3428. That said, I think I'm starting to trend back due to @3780. Before I make a final call, a rebuttal?

Any further thoughts before I make a mod edit request for Monster.Fallout to slightly alter Myron's entry and remove Salt-Upon-Wounds?

Also for the Nightmare from Monster.Kirby to be transferred to the Anime & Manga subpage?

edited 12th Oct '12 10:04:50 AM by EarlOfSandvich

Nightmare is the only real example on the Subpage, so I say you should move and delete. So yeah, I have no objection.

@3783 Manfred and Fransizka may not have had the most loving relationship, but she does seem to respect and care deeply for him, and when he gets arrested, she wants nothing more than to preserve his honor. In Investigations, we actually see them interact, and he doesn't seem to be a half-bad father. Sure, he's evil, but his actions aren't too dissimilar to Chief Gant's from the same game, and nobody's arguing that he counts. I dunno, I have my doubts that von Karma qualifies, but I don't for Hawthorne, Engarde, or Gavin.

@32_Footsteps

Craster was brought up as part of an ongoing discussion of the A Song Of Ice And Fire subpage. If you'd like a link to the page, it's right here.

With your vote that's now four votes to remove Gambino and the torturer. On a totally irrelevant note, the subject has prompted me to start rereading Berserk. You know that when your starter villain does this things are going to be bad.

edited 12th Oct '12 11:22:19 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Just created a sandbox for the anime/manga examples for the purpose of cleaning up, alphabetizing and perhaps even narrowing down entries. I even included the rewording of the Nightmare's entry.

That sounds like a really good idea to me. I may try and help you out there.

Hey, I've noticed that examples keep getting added to Monster.Fan Works even though it has the disclaimer to discuss it here. I nominate locking the page.

I second that.

@ Shaoken: Ahh, thank you, I was hoping someone had seen that particular scene in Perfect Prosecutor.

Still, I do protest him being a complete monster. Remember, "Complete." One reason, which I do admit is tenuous, is when Manfred talks about his granddaughter. (Manfred has more than one daughter) He knows the name of his granddaughter's dog. This implies to me that he cares enough about his family to know such a fact. Though it could simply be he wants to know everything about his immediate family in his quest for perfection. Still, it implies his relationship with his first(?) daughter is good enough that she lets Manfred see her child.

Fransizka may not be upset at her father's death, but she wasn't overjoyed, either. And Manfred treating her like an apprentice may be harsh, but is it completely devoid of any emotion? It could just be his weird way of showing love.

So that's why I want to remove him. Yes, he's monstrous, but I don't get the vibe of a complete monster, considering the rest of his family.

@32Footsteps (Because I can't get your name to wikilink.)

I was referring to the rest of your post in relation to everyone else on the Ace Attorney page, but I mentioned Von Karma first as an exception. My apologies for misrepresenting you. 'Twas not my intention.

I sense a battle of wits coming on...someone play appropriate Ace Attorney music.

With the first one, I'd say it's no proof either way. He knows the name of his granddaughter's dog...what's the point in that? He's a prosecutor, remembering names and details is a key part of his job.

And with Fransizka, I never got the vibe that she actually missed Manfred at all. Her grudge against Pheonix is entirely due to his interactions with Miles, and she scoffs off the notion that she's holding the grudge over her father.

@ 3787, I've also played Investigations and he doesn't come off any better in that appearance. My meories of it are him telling the two not to tarnish the family name. And in Justice for All that is what Fransizka is focused on; the Von Karma name, not Manfred himself.

I'm sorry, at no point do I see any overt or covert signs of love or affection. What I did see was Manfred using his adopted son and his daughter as tools towards his own goals (destroying Gregory Edgeworth's legacy and extending his own dynasty respectively). For a comparison's sake, he's one step below Henry Lawson in terms of how he treats his children. He views them as a means to an end.

@3785 That sounds fine to me.

@3788 Ah, alright, with the right context, I'm fine with including Craster as you wrote him up.

@3791 I just put in the lock request.

@3793 No problems; I just wanted to make sure the cites were correct for anyone who wanted to go back and see my whole thought process. Also, my name is a pain for some folks because you can make a troper name for a page that starts with a number and has an underscore, but you can't make a troper page for a handle like that (it also may be a factor because I made my troper handle ages ago, and I think that registration requirements were adjusted because of the issues my login name present). You want to link to Tropers.Thirty Two Footsteps.

As for von Karma (wait, do I need to grow out my beard and put on a robe for this, since I'm making a judgment?)...

Being a control freak like he is, I think him remembering family details doesn't say anything about his compassion - it just sounds like something that comes naturally to him, like how I can still quote large sections of my favorite video games. Moreover, the only moments of affection that are even arguable seem to be one-way from Fransiska to Manfred, not the other way around. Since Manfred is the only one at controversy here, that sounds like he lacks any sort of redeemable features. I find Manfred von Karma, on the charge of being a Complete Monster... GUILTY!

I would like to discuss Mel Gibson examples:

• William Tavington from The Patriot likes to shoot little boys and set churches filled with innocent people on fire. The audience can only cheer when the hero kills him.
  • Movies by Mel Gibson in general seem to have a higher-than-average ratio of Complete Monsters.
    • Tavington exists mainly so Gibson's protagonist can brutally slaughter British troops and still look like a good guy.
    • Edward Longshanks undergoes a Historical Villain Upgrade in order to justify William Wallace' violent way of achieving revenge and freedom in Braveheart.
    • The Mayan warriors in Apocalypto are horrible, especially the rapist Middle Eye who enjoys torturing captives.

So, Tavington is absolutely a Complete Monster.

As for Edward Longshanks, I don't think that he is, because he doesn't really do anything on-screen in the film; all the actions are committed by his minions.

The Mayan warriors violate "no group" rule, although the Middle Eye could still go. He is more vile than the rest of them. The leader on the other hand definitely doesn't qualify due to love for his son, being a Father to His Men, and showing disgust with some of Middle Eye's behavior.

Also, do we get any more opinions about Tekken examples?

edited 13th Oct '12 5:05:55 PM by Krystoff

Ok, with 32’s vote, that’s 4 tropers against Nassana and Saleon. I’ll wait another day for any more input before asking the mods to have the Mass Effect monster page zapped, since none of the examples count, then I’ll add the Lawson entry to the sandbox.

As much work as I put into that page...can't really argue with the logic presented.

Protip: Cutting a page, locked or no, goes to the Cut List.

^^^^ Regarding Apocalypto's Middle Eye, I'm not saying that rape isn't bad, but given the setting, it's not all that particularly heinous. At the very least, it's a lot more survivable than having one's heart cut out.

Unfortunately, not having seen the movie I couldn't comment on what else he does, so I can't say either way whether he applies.

As for Longshanks, IIRC the only on-screen villainy attributable to him, really, is the whole "breed them out" bit, which isn't exactly a Moral Event Horizon event then or now. Agree with the cut, in other words.

(Tangentially, though, that formatting is ugly, with a capital Ugh. I know proper entry formatting isn't this thread's purpose, but still... )

edited 13th Oct '12 5:27:55 PM by Nohbody