During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
OK, here goes:
- Rage of Bahamut: Genesis: Gilles de Rais, the true mastermind behind the plan to re-awaken the titular apocalyptic dragon, is a human criminal overly obsessed with death, so much that he played both Heaven and Hell like fiddles just so they squander their resources into fighting each other while he set his schemes into motion unchecked. He takes advantage of Beelzebub's own ambition to control the Bahamut (posing as his henchman in the process), and absolutely revels in the misery and deception he causes, be it corrupting Michael's greatest champion, Jeanne, or trampling on Amira's hopes, revealing that her memories are nothing but lies he himself made up with his magic. As his plan succeeds, the only thing he says is how beautiful the world's despair is in front of Bahamut's unbridled rampage.
This could be shortened since he's just there For the Evulz.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
I'm still skeptical of King Boo. He's had several appearances and there's only one where he goes beyond the pale.
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
One case that doesn't need to be shortened. I'll work on that and Boo this weekend.
The Mario series is effectively Negative Continuity. I'm not sure that's an issue.
(![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for me on King Boo, if that's not clear).
edited 27th Feb '15 3:23:26 PM by nrjxll
I guess whether it counts across King Boos appearances depends on how much we consider stuff like Go-Karting with Bowser to be canon.
That said, I still think King Boo is an , and I also recall those experiments. The standard ghosts were already violent and malicious tricksters, the fact that they were scared witless by those transformations really said something to me.
And although indifference is better than cruelty, it's not in a redeeming way.
edited 27th Feb '15 4:42:26 PM by Ekimmak
If everyone were normal, the world would be a dull place. Like reality television.
Hoo boy. After reading that effortpost last night, I'm certain King Boo is a keeper. Cam a villain be a Complete Monster in just one game? If that's possible, I am not opposed to King Boo. I'm pretty sure what we have here is Motive Decay in that while he may have originally had good intentions and altruistic qualities, they're all gone by Dark Moon. I never actually thought we'd have another Mario villain that's more heinous than Bowser. I thought Dimentio and The Shadow Queen were going to be the only Vile Villains Saccharine game. But damn. If you couldn't tell, I'm a definite yes to King Boo. Would have voted sooner, but I was tired.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
My concern with King Boo is, what about the future? Mario villains never stay down, apart from the RPG ones at least, and I feel pretty confident next time King Boo shows up he'll just be another of Bowser's silly evil minions doing silly evil things.
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
Negative Continuity takes care of that, I think
Yeah I will give a to King Boo.
Too late, he was in a Match 3 minigame boss in Mario Party.
edited 27th Feb '15 6:13:37 PM by Ekimmak
If everyone were normal, the world would be a dull place. Like reality television.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
I'm not sure Mario's continuity is totally negative, as we do know a few things about it. Yoshi's Island is chronologically first, Super Mario Land takes place before all the other appearances of Wario, and the RPGs happen in sequence.
It is very rubbery though, you're right.
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."Go Karting with Bowser is probably in effect here.
Just because he's silly in a spinoff game, doesn't mean he'll be silly in a main series game. Luigi's Mansion is arguably part of the dubious Mario canon and while the games have negative continuity, many things have stuck. Like I said, I'd be willing to say yes if villains can be CM in one game. But as far as I know, King Boo was never "silly" in a mainstream Mario game. (Sunshine's King Boo is an entirely different character according to Word of God) In the only main series games he was featured in, he was a Well-Intentioned Extremist, but that's all gone by Dark Moon as I said before.
edited 27th Feb '15 7:24:45 PM by Klavice
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Ok, its about time I adressed the horribly out of order write up of President Snow.
- The Hunger Games: President Snow, as the overseer of the corrupt Capitol government that created and runs the child-murdering spectacle of the title, commits an insane number of atrocities all in the name of keeping his power. In the first book Snow tortures Seneca Crane because Katniss and Peeta, without his interference at all, figured out how to survive The Hunger Games together and beat the system. In the second book Catching Fire he has the Quarter Quell's rules are changed to having two previous Hunger Games winners from each district to compete out of pure spite. He has Katniss' friends tortured or murdered to break her confidence, even forcing her to watch Cinna's beating before the Quarter Quell. Katniss and Peeta got off lucky however as most other Hunger Games winners, Finnick Odair included, were forced by Snow to prostitute themselves out to other Capitol residents. In the final book Mockingjay Snow firebombs Katniss' home in District 12 and later tries to plant guilt for the act on President Coin. He authorizes the painful brainwashing of multiple citizens. One of these victims, Peeta, has had his mental faculties destroyed for months which will affect the way he processes events for life. His most heinous action occurs during the war between District 13 and the Capitol, where he offers innocent Capitol children shelter in his home only to use them as Human Shields to protect himself.
edited 27th Feb '15 10:21:10 PM by randomtroper89
So unless someone objects, I will request to cut Sykes soon.
Shouldn't we tally the votes or something?
edited 27th Feb '15 10:16:22 PM by TVRulezAgain
From the FAQ:
This pretty much sums up King Boo. None of the numerous Mario spinoff series have anything resembling continuity between each other, and AFAIK there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Especially since the games are made by different companies; Depending on the Writer is a huge factor here.
Bingo.
So, we specify it's from the Luigi's Mansion 2 game? Or the one from the Luigi's Mansion part of the series, seeing as there was apparently a different King Boo involved in the main Mario games?
If everyone were normal, the world would be a dull place. Like reality television.
One thing: if Imran Zakhaev has been considered a true Complete Monster maybe his Papa Wolf entry in the characters page should be cut since it's a reedeming feature or at least explained a lot more.
Party Crasher
Yeah, that bugs me too. He did seem hurt by the death of his son. "My blood, on their hands..." You could even hear his voice crack!
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
IIRC that was discussed, and it was decided it wasn't disqualifying (don't remember the exact details). ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Found it.
edited 28th Feb '15 3:27:06 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Party Crasher
Alright, good enough. Thanks.
So, what about Herzog? Do we keep this guy or what?
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I think he has enough votes. Lighty?
Also, Scraggle, could you please add your writeup for King Boo to Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon?
Hold on a minute. I have a few things to say about the writeup before it's added.
#1.
The entry specifically applies to the second game, so the entry should be written as such. Like this:
#2.
A few things here:
- "series" potholes to VideoGame.Super Mario Bros, which is a redirect. The correct pothole is Franchise.Super Mario Bros.
- "series" and "so light-hearted" have two potholes right next to each other with nothing separating them, which is poor form.
- "light-hearted" does not need a hyphen. It is a single compound word.
- "the Mario Bros." do not fight King Boo in this game, only one of them does (namely Luigi). Mario spends the whole game in a painting. (Yes, Mario has fought him in other games, but this is the only one where he is remotely CM-worthy.)
- Overall, I think the example gets the point across just fine without this sentence, but that's just my opinion. If we keep it, here's how it should look:
edited 28th Feb '15 6:05:10 AM by MyTimingIsOff
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- Rage of Bahamut: Genesis: Gilles de Rais (Martinet and Lavalley), the true mastermind behind the plan to re-awaken the titular apocalyptic dragon, is a human criminal overly obsessed with death, so much that he played both Heaven and Hell like fiddles just so they squander their resources into fighting each other while he set his schemes into motion unchecked. He takes advantage of Beelzebub's own ambition to control the Bahamut (posing as his henchman in the process), and absolutely revels in the misery and deception he causes, be it corrupting Michael's greatest champion, Jeanne, or trampling on Amira's hopes, revealing that her memories are nothing but lies he himself made up with his magic. As his plan succeeds, the only thing he says is how beautiful the world's despair is in front of Bahamut's unbridled rampage.
- The Hunger Games: President Snow, as the overseer of the corrupt Capitol government that created and runs the child-murdering spectacle of the title, commits an insane number of atrocities all in the name of keeping his power. In the first book Snow tortures Seneca Crane because Katniss and Peeta, without his interference at all, figured out how to survive The Hunger Games together and beat the system. In the second book, Catching Fire, he has the Quarter Quell's rules changed to having two previous Hunger Games winners from each district to compete, simply out of spite. He has Katniss's friends tortured or murdered to break her confidence, even forcing her to watch Cinna's beating before the Quarter Quell. Katniss and Peeta got off lucky however as most other Hunger Games winners, Finnick Odair included, were forced by Snow to prostitute themselves out to other Capitol residents. In the final book Mockingjay, Snow firebombs Katniss's home in District 12 and later tries to frame President Coin. He authorizes the painful brainwashing of multiple citizens, one of whom, Peeta, has had his mental faculties destroyed for months, which will affect the way he processes events for life. Possibly his most heinous action occurs during the war between District 13 and the Capitol, where he offers innocent Capitol children shelter in his home only to use them as human shields to protect himself.
- Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon: King Boo sheds any of his redeeming qualities from the previous game and becomes an unfettered monster. After his first defeat by Luigi, King Boo is consumed by his lust for revenge against Luigi, and shatters the Dark Moon, enslaving the minds of the once-docile ghosts of Evershade Valley to his control. Unleashing them on the valley, King Boo abducts Mario himself and several Toads and imprisons them within paintings. Uncaring about his minions, King Boo performs experiments on his ghosts against their will to amplify their destructive potential, and calmly allows his own Boos to be caught and sealed by Luigi in a stark contrast to his characterization in the last game. After Luigi gets close to restoring the Dark Moon, King Boo starts to lose it, and tears open a portal to the ghosts' homeworld with the intent to destroy the universe as an act of spite. Once he's foiled, King Boo warps Luigi to his own dimension, announcing his intent to trap Luigi and all his friends in paintings as he conquers the world and "paints the town red." Shockingly dark for a series that is usually lighthearted, King Boo devolved into an uncaring sociopath who would willingly kill everyone and destroy everything just for a chance to get back at his rival.
edited 1st Mar '15 2:47:45 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Let me catch up:
First, nobody has opposed Gilles de Rais, so if you want to write him up,Ano Bako Desu, I think you can. good to know on Date A Live as well. . @ Scraggle: I can barely believe I'm saying this, but King Boo seems a yes
@ Klavice: How is that redeeming for Alba? He's not commenting in sympathy, he's commenting on a shared feeling of physical pain.
@ Skybrigadier: I think you should've put these instances of attempted infanticide and starting a civil war to profit off it at the start of that. 'Virulent racism and classism' doesn't really come close to that. If this is a genuine war and got lots of people killed, then yes as long as he's devoid of redeeming qualities.