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The Winx Club examples aren't very good. The Trix are pretty much the least threatning and dangerous villains on the show. They don't do much beyond standard villainy and are treated far too lightly. What kind of Complete Monster is defeated by a ladybug (Just watch that one sprite episode). The Wizards of the Black Coast don't apply due to being somewhat Played for Laughs and the no group rule. The leader may actually count provided we can make a good entry for him.
We talked about these earlier, many didn't see their threatening potential, and they became lost in the discussion.
Think of the mooks!@3513 The reason why I said that you should bring examples in and wait for actual voting (rather than just 9 hours) is because you can't be certain that everyone will agree with you on how bad an example is. As I've made it clear, I haven't (although Largo's example in @3516 is better, with the @3517 suggestion appended to the beginning). We could go back-and-forth, but when it comes down to it, it's pretty simple. No single opinion rises above any other opinion; and if we want others to obey the rules we've set out in this thread to handle examples, we have to obey them too. I really don't think I'm asking anything outrageous of anyone. @3519: Monster.Disgaea needs a huge rewrite. Terrible use of spoilers, poorly worded... ugh. I'll give a rewrite a crack on Monday. Monster.Kirby should be cut from the Video Game section; the only mention from a game is the first item, which should be cut. I'd have to give the others a solid look to see if they still belong in the Anime section (admittedly, likely not). Monster.League Of Legends is almost totally without context, and what little context is there mostly sounds like Offscreen Villainy. And we even have a "... isn't as bad as..." mention for one of them. Cut them all. For Monster.Mario -
Moving on from the back and forth, I concur that Largo's rewrite is considerably better than the original. I would be glad with either a variation of it (preferably containing an added description of what crimes Bateman claims to have committed) or the rewrite I attempted going on the page. Either one is, I feel, a significant improvement and will not encourage others to post bad examples. The link to Unreliable Narrator in the writeup that Largo did is key, as I think it'll make it clear that the problem is whether we can trust Bateman, rather than if he's heinous enough, etc. Anyway, I'm going to try and go through some more literature examples over the course of this week (though regretfully my schedule is tightening up). If some more people wanted to weigh in on the Millennium Trilogy and any of the others I've already posted about that'd be great, as I've only gotten one or two opinions so far. EDIT: Found one already. "In Crime and Punishment, another novel by Dostoyevsky, Svidrigailov has few if any redeeming qualities, seeing how he tries to rape Dunya, among other things. Luzhin almost looks nice in comparison to him(although completely and unambiguously lacking in redeeming qualities). He does have a Pet the Dog moment, when he leaves his money to Sonya - and then blows his brains out with a revolver." Let me count the problems here. Only one crime is mentioned, with no context for how bad that is by the setting's standards. There's a comparison to another character, who also isn't described (meaning the comparison is useless), and there's a comment about Pet the Dog, though whether it's meant to be attached to Luzhin or Svidrigailov I do not know. Is anyone going to be real sad if I axe this one quickly? EDIT: I think I mentioned before that someone needed to look at the Honor Harrington series examples. Since They're right beneath that last one I posted, I think I'll just put them up here. "* In Honor Harrington, David Weber does Even Evil Has Standards very well, with honorable enemies who put Honor Before Reason and really aren't that bad. However there are some exceptions:
edited 30th Sep '12 5:21:40 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Iíve only read the first three books in the series, but Iíd say Serpine counts while the Faceless Ones donít. The Faceless Ones are Eldritch Abominations and, from what Iíve read up to, theyíre really only defined as big scary unfathomable monsters that will destroy the world if released. No actual personalities have been given. Serpine, on the other hand, is a human that just loves being evil and has done enough heinous things to qualify, in my opinion. Agree with cutting Krait for lack of information on him. Also agree on cutting Tonk Fah for the moment, since the torturing animals to death is all thatís listed on him. If this ever transitioned into torturing people in Warbreaker, then heíd have a better shot. Speaking of Brandon Sanderson, in his novel Elantris, the Big Bad Dilaf is a Knight Templar that wants to commit genocide against two races of people. However, his reason for wanting to do this is because his wife was turned into an Elantrian, essentially a zombie who continues to feel hunger and whoís pains never go away, accumulating to the point where the pain drives them into complete madness. He burned her alive to Mercy Kill her, and losing her drove him completely insane. Seriously, he constantly hears her screams in his head. Loving his wife, coupled with his belief in the righteousness of his cause, does anyone else agree with me that he doesnít count as a Complete Monster? Anyhoo, eons ago, when the earth was young, I said that Christopher Carrion from the book series Abarat didnít count because of his Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds nature and the fact he feels love for the heroine. I also recommended getting rid of Princess Boa for not being heinous enough. Would anyone object if I removed these examples? @3525: Thank you.
edited 30th Sep '12 5:48:58 PM by OccasionalExister
The Crime and Punishment is bad because 1) It is confusing and 2) a Pet the Dog moment means not completely evil. Honor Harrington: Saint-Just is a poorly worded example. He might count but there isn't enough detail to say for sure and the bits about MB and Karmic Death are extraneous. Lord Pavel Young: If his worst crime is being a rapist that he isn't measuring up to the guy with the nuke also the example says that his grandfather is worse meaning that he isn't bad within his own family let a lone the series. Again Karmic Death dialogue is exctraneous Andre Warnecke: " top Complete Monster" ... the troper doesn't seem to have a full grasp on the concept of what it means to be a CM. Andre does seem to equal the standards of heinousness for the series but the emotional language does need to be removed. The entry comes across as a "He is a Complete Monster because I hate him so much" In the end not sure if he counts as I have not read the series but definitely needs a re-write. Warbreaker - Tonk Fah: While torturing animals to death is bad that alone isn't really what I would consider to be in Complete Monster territory. Also Word Of God does not a Complete Monster make. The Good Guy - Krait: Not enough description and not even a single crime mentioned. Skulduggery Pleasant - Nefarian Serpine: Possible candidate but the entry does need to be rewritten and his actions measured against the standards of heinousness for the setting. I would agree that cutting one line entries should be safe. I don't think that it is possible to convey the amount of information necessary to confirm CM status in a single line.
edited 30th Sep '12 5:51:18 PM by SophiaLonesoul
I was wondering about Dilaf actually. The example for him on the page isn't very well written, and acknowledges the "loving his wife" part in it. Looking at your description of him, I really don't think he qualifies. I'd support cutting it.
Given your description I am also inclined to say that Dilaf doesn't count. He cares about his wife and his current actions seem to come out of that from your description.
Regarding Lieutenant Sayle from The Drowned Cities: from what I know of the series Sayle is head and shoulders worse than the other people in series. The example looks pretty good. The only thing that I would suggest leaving out is the last bit about Ocho's opinion.
Azor AhaiRe Tonk Fah, I've read the novel, he could count, not quite sure. Word Of God explains further something implied in the novel- basically, his less villainous partner Denth permits him to torture animals to death in lieu of allowing him to do that to people- in one instance wherein only the aftermath is shown, Denth didn't pay close enough attention to Tonk Fah and allowed him to interrogate a prisoner, and Tonk Fah tortured the guy to death. One issue is that the less villainous Denth's own plans (which Tonk Fah took part in) involved killing about a dozen people, and the likewise well-intentioned big bad plots to cause essentially a world war- so I'm not sure if Tonk Fah is evil by the standards of the story. Tonk Fah is also presented somewhat humorously- but in the manner of Xykon or the Joker- sort of a deconstruction of Comedic Sociopathy.
I found more questionable entries on the literature page: "Bernard Cornwell often presents rather multilayered villains, who are sometimes even likable and no better or worse than the heroes. However, when he creates a villain less humanly relatable, he creates an utter monster of a villain.
edited 30th Sep '12 7:01:58 PM by SophiaLonesoul
Let's rumba!What about Sarda? His malice toward the Light Warriors? Justified. His sadistic hatred of everything else except his younger self? Not so much. Because the Light Warriors straddle the line of monstrosity themselves (except Fighter), so his torture of them is less applicable. But look at how he treats everyone else, one of those people could not respect him more.
So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean, if I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be?
Sarda isn't taken seriously.
I think I've fallen so far behind this thread now that the only thing I can do is go and read some of the subpages for myself, then come back and offer my opinions. However, in regards to the one example that does seem to be clearly under discussion right now, I'd say Tonk Fah certainly does not count - the only way he can be considered "heinous by the standards of the story" is that basically everybody else in it is at least a somewhat sympathetic figure. But in terms of his actual actions and goals, he's essentially just a glorified mook. I don't think he counts. I think he's actually taken more seriously than most of the characters, especially once he starts taking a more prominent role in the story. But absolutely no one in Eight Bit Theater is taken seriously enough to be a Complete Monster, and as far as actual actions the protagonists are much worse anyway.
edited 30th Sep '12 7:24:19 PM by nrjxll
I'd like to challenge Total Drama Island character Chris McLean's status as a Complete Monster. Chris has done a ton of evil stuff, it's true, but his disregard for the lives of the competitors/his interns is never played seriously and is always Played for Laughs. Plus, he has a few Pet the Dog moments, such as the times he's shown to actually like Owen. There's also his Villainous Friendship with Chef Hatchet, and the two truly care about each other.
edited 30th Sep '12 7:27:11 PM by GameSorcerer
I'm not real familiar with Bernard Cornwell's work as a whole, but I've read Azincourt and I'd say Sir Martin qualifies. He abuses his position as priest, telling women that the Bible requires them to get naked in front of him, then rapes them, and if their husbands complain, murders them. He tries to kill the main character, Nick Hook, and when Nick hits back, runs to the local lord to whine about how Nick struck a priest. He later frames Nick's handicapped brother for stealing so that King Henry will hang him, and makes repeated attempts to get Nick in trouble with the rest of the army for, I kid you not, "living in sin with a Frenchwoman"; what he's really upset about is that he wanted to rape Nick's eventual wife himself and Nick got in the way. Finally, when the fighting at Agincourt is at its heaviest, Sir Martin decides the battle is lost, and sneaks off to rape Nick's wife while everyone else is busy, leaving his cousins, brothers, and bastard sons (he's got a few) to what he believes is their certain death. He's a disgusting guy. Leastaways, that's how I recall it. I confess it has been a year or so since I've read the book, and I don't have a copy of it on me.
edited 30th Sep '12 8:15:37 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Think of the mooks!While I am in favor of cutting the Crime and Punishment example (due to Pet the Dog), wait until we get a few more opinions on the matter. As was pointed out before, this is not a race. We can afford to take the time to do things right. For the Honor Harrington examples, I honestly have a hard time seeing how the first two (particularly the second, who has no supporting argument of note listed) compare to Warnecke. I'm inclined to keep only that one. For Tonk Fah, I've said before that, as terrible as I personally find animal cruelty, it alone is not enough for Complete Monster status. Cut. For one-line entries in general, I want time to go through those (especially since I'm trying to wrap up the Video Games page... seriously, it's almost done!). I bet there's at least one that I can personally improve upon just from my own experience (or at least one that I can definitively cut beyond just being a one-liner).
Keeping track of the votes for cuts and additions so far we have: Tonk Fah: 5 votes cut, 1 maybe keep Svidrigailov: 3 votes cut Krait: 3 votes cut Serpine: 3 rewrites; agreement to cut the line about the Faceless Ones Dilaf: 3 leaning towards cut Saint-Just and Pavel: 3 cut The Millennium Trilogy: Two votes to cut Zalechenko and Bjurman; unsure yet about any and all of the others. Lietenant Sayle: 3 votes to add (including my own, since I am the one who wrote it up) If I've miscounted or misrepresented anybody, feel free to correct me.
edited 1st Oct '12 9:05:13 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
What about Brie and Sloan from The Wild Thornberries movie? I think they fit well enough.
Trying to kill the hero is considered par for the course for any villian, ditto not being played for laughs. Ditto being liars. Which just leaves the animal cruelty which fails because What Measure Is a Non-Human?? So I vote against them.
I seem to remember that we actually specifically discussed and cut these guys a while back (although all the purported cartoon CMs tend to blur together in my mind), but keep in mind: it's "heinous by the standards of the story", which might be lower in this case. (Also, that's an incorrect use of What Measure Is a Non-Human?)
No matter how many times...Cleaning up Kung Fu Panda Legends Of Awesomeness's complete monster entry.
edited 1st Oct '12 4:04:25 AM by flamemario12
The Chaotic QueenYou're not suppose delete them until we've decided.
edited 1st Oct '12 4:57:31 AM by ChaoticQueen
(>^.^)> (>^.^<) <(^.^<) <(^.^)> v(^.^)^
Still, we have to draw the line somewhere at where the bar starts, so we don't get repeats of he-who-must-not-be-named and Discord. Henious by the standards of the story only goes so far, if the standards are low enough it becomes impossible for that work to have a Complete Monster because that irredeamable level of evil is simply unobtaniable. Also I probably screwed it up, but I was more pointing out that killing hordes of animals, while bad, wouldn't push someone into CM territory since animals aren't considered on par with humans.
Even killing humans is usually (except possibly in the most lighthearted show) not a CM level. Killing animals in just Kick the Dog while killing humans is something villainous but does not usually push you over the edge. And this is why, as Fighteer said many times; kids shows should not have complete monsters because of the low standards (but I guess exceptions can be made for the most extreme cases). I vote against those guys as well; I hope none of them is on the list. Also, Shaoken he who must not be named, did you refer to brony?
edited 1st Oct '12 5:49:15 AM by Krystoff
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