During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
No one's asked, but before it comes up, Ulcis is truly heinous by the standards of the story he's in. Only King Menoa, the universe's satan analogue comes close to his level of evil, and Menoa has Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas going for him. Ulcis does not.
Anyway, the thing I'm worried about is how to sensibly spoiler his entry. For most of the novel, we follow people who live in Ulcis' city and think of him as their god and saviour. We slowly realise just how terrible life is in the city, but even then, it's not until the very end that we find out just how bad he was. Preventing the audience from learning whose father he was is easy (I just didn't give his daughter Carnival's name), but the fact that he's a villain at all is actually a revelation that is only slowly arrived at. Suggestions from the forum?
Avatar by Leafsnake
@ Footsteps: Arkillo's pet the dog moments were present when I first mentioned him, I just had forgotten to list them, and I apologize.
Kincaid: Well, that's my problem with some Freudian excuses, "my pain makes me feel bad so I'll kill a bunch of you guys, feel sorry for me audience!" Aside from that, I'm inclined to say that his Freudian excuse brought on insanity and disqualifies him, just barely though.
Trauma center: I agree to keeping both, and to cut out Even worse.
Clockwerk: Big scary robot eagle, kill Sly's father in a flash back image, doesn't do much else, cut.
Tsukihime: keep, and make the changes you proposed, they look good.
I have cut Arkillo, thanks for the input everyone!
edited 25th Sep '12 12:18:13 AM by DrPsyche
Think of the mooks!
@3402 I think the easiest way would be to spoiler the character's name. Actually, write a couple of words that describe the character before it, so that it's long enough to make it not clear who is hiding under the spoiler. Each time after the first mention, call him "this character" to keep the secret without having to spoiler the whole entry.
@3403 Yeah, tropes like Pet the Dog should always be brought up in regards to this cleanup if you're looking to disqualify someone. A genuine Pet The Dog moment is one of the easier arguments for a disqualification from Complete Monster you can make in my eyes. But the example is agreed upon, and we're all happy.
Okay, now to hit the video game subpages, to see if they should be kept, moved to the sandbox, or cut altogether...
- Dahlia Hawthorne - Keep, although much should be condensed (and the last bullet point should be cut, for jaywalking reasons).
- Kristoph Gavin - Keep, but again needing cleanup (he certainly doesn't need third-level bullets).
- Matt Engarde - Oh boy, we have another entry that seems to want to disqualify the others with the "biggest" qualifier. Very similar in my eyes to Dahlia, and should be kept, but with rewording.
- Manfred von Karma - He's a different flavor of monster, given that he deliberately is playing a very long and vicious game of revenge through the legal system. The change I'd make is to blend the subbullet into the main entry.
- Redd White - I'm sorry, but he's just not as evil as some of the others. He's hated, yes, but we're not debating The Scrappy here. Cut.
- Quercus Alba - Being responsible for all of Investigations is enough to qualify, although the example needs cleaning for organizational purposes.
- Calisto Yew - First off, not good to be a subbullet. Second, it presents her as being less bad than her boss, Alba. Finally, see how it says above that he's responsible for everything? That includes this woman's murders. I say cut.
- Bansai Ichiyanagi - Well, we have another entry that tries to negate a different entry in its description (this time, von Karma). For the most part, it sounds like he's just an accessory to worse crimes, and it also relies on "suggested" crimes. I vote to cut.
If folks want, I can do the rewrite of the above, followed by a lock.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
I think we've had this discussion before, but did we find that Maleficent doesn't fulfill the criteria?
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
In uffish thought
Yes, in this thread and I believe also in the media forum thread for Sleeping Beauty. The Monster.Disney page has been finished and locked, and she ain't on it. She's been added and pulled from that page enough time we need to reinstate the commented-out note; I'm happy to watchlist it if necessary.
That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.
For Monster.Pokemon, I've merged the eligible examples from the games and the potentially eligible candidates from the Anime page, which now redirects to the page. Any discussion/improvement for the examples before I request a lock to the page?
I now go by Graf von Tirol.Yes, i guess the mention of the games in the Giovanni example not belongs there. The games and the anime belong to different continuities.
In case of video game sandbox, I think it is too early to swap it with the main page for now. Some new games are coming soon (Assassins Creed 3 and God Of War Ascension and many others). Wait till they will come out so will add villains from them (assuming of course, they will have any C Ms).
Avatar by Leafsnake
@ Footsteps: I brought up the Pet the dog in my original post, but I neglected to elaborate on it. As you said, it doesn't matter now, he's been cut.
Anyone have any opinion on the examples I brought up in 3266. I got 32_Footsteps's and a few other opinions. Avengers Earths Mightiest Heroes
Surtur: Iffy
Red Skull: Keep
Zemo: Cut
Skrull!Captain America: Cut
Grim Reaper: Cut
General Ross: Cut
edited 25th Sep '12 12:39:20 PM by DrPsyche
Out of note, a lot of the pokemon examples was put again.
We can account for further changes as they go on, so I'd prefer submitting for edit as soon as we know which existing subpages to keep.
And speaking of new games, I actually saw that Handsome Jack of Borderlands 2 has been included as such in the work's YMMV page. Haven't played the game yet (unfortunately), so I'll have to opt out of the issue of whether to include him.
Saw that too. Just PM'ed the one who edited them back to let him know what's going on.
edited 25th Sep '12 5:36:36 PM by EarlOfSandvich
I now go by Graf von Tirol.
Insults, no matter the language, are not indicators of a Complete Monster. Killing the protagonist is also not indicative. There is a point that in the world of Pokemon, such actions are almost never done, and that the protagonist is a children, but I'm still on the side of removing him.
Relating to the other video game entries, I agree with the Trauma Center ones: Edit, but keep.
As for Ace Attorney, my thoughts mostly agree with 32 Footsteps, though I'd remove Von Karma. He's shown to have a family, notably two daughters and at least one granddaughter, and I suspect that, while perhaps harsh in his parenting, he still cared for them. I haven't played the Perfect Prosecutor games, so I may be proven wrong, since these do show his one daughter Fransizka and hints as to their childhood. Still, for the time, I'd remove him. He's not complete.
edited 25th Sep '12 7:40:18 PM by TriggerLoaded
Don't take life too seriously. It's only a temporary situation.
Sorry it took me longer than I thought; here are my thoughts on The Elder Scrolls:
@Chaotic Queen: It sounds like Umaril did do onscreen villainy, so it's his personality and goals that I now have questions about. How well-defined is he as a character? Is he sadistic or powerhungry, or only vengeful? Because like I said earlier, the gods empowered his killer so I can understand why he'd be vengeful. What was he doing in the past that made the gods want to kill him in the first place? What does he plan to do once the gods are dead? Is there any effect to the gods dying other than dead gods, or is the world negatively affected in some way? If so, does he know or care? I need to know a little more before deciding if he's an actual character or just a Generic Doomsday Villain.
I'll offer opinions on other The Elder Scrolls examples later, but for now here are my proposed rewrites for Mankar Camoran and Mannimarco:
- Mankar Camoran, the leader of the Mythic Dawn cult and a worshipper of Mehrunes Dagon. During Oblivion, Mankar’s goal is to summon his master into Tamriel so Dagon may destroy the world and create a new one in its place, one that coheres with Camoran’s Social Darwinist beliefs. Not only does Mankar aide Dagon’s Daedra in attacking the mortal world, he also orchestrates the assassination of Emperor Uriel Septim, as well as his children. He had the city of Kvatch completely destroyed in an attempt to kill Uriel’s bastard son, Martin. While Mankor lures in his followers with promises of a paradise for their faithful service, this turns out to be a lie. Seemingly idyllic on the surface, Dawn’s Beauty, Mankar’s “paradise,” is really a hell where his followers are constantly killed by monsters, only to be resurrected and killed over and over again. His promise to allow any follower who loses faith to leave his paradise also proves false, as the grotto, which is said to be an exit from the afterlife, really leads to a torture chamber where the unfaithful are made immortal, locked into gibbets, and then dumped into lava. One follower who lost faith was forced by Camoran into inflicting this punishment on his friends over and over again. Dawn’s Beauty is said to be Mankar’s vision of how he believes the world will be once Dagon takes over.
- Mannimarco, the King of Worms and the leader of the Order of the Black Worm, is the first lich and the Arc Villain of the Mages’ Guild quest line in Oblivion. An incredibly powerful necromancer, Mannimarco’s study into the arts of entrapping and enslaving souls festered in him to a deep hatred for peace and life. A sadist believing himself Above Good and Evil, Mannimarco sought out obtaining as much magical and political power as he could over the passing millennia. Sometimes this power was obtained via Faustian deals; in at least one instance he helped a princess arrange a political marriage in exchange for her firstborn child. After achieving godhood at the end of Daggerfall, a mortal part of Mannimarco was left behind, and decided to settle a petty grudge with a long-dead enemy by destroying the Mages’ Guild said enemy founded. Mannimarco became invested in creating black soul gems, which he used to steal the souls of those who opposed him, and plotted to capture the soul of Archmage Hannibal Traven to empower himself. The souls captured are aware while in the gems, and, once their power's been used up, they are sent to a purgatory type dimension called the Soul Cairn for all eternity. When a mage infiltrated his order, he had the mage tortured to death and then resurrected the mage as a zombie to be an example to the Guild. Mannimarco also took great pleasure in leading the attack on the Bruma Mages’ chapter and slaughtering everyone present, leaving only one mage alive to tell tale of what happened in Bruma.
@Ambar: May be late but I vote yes on Ulcis.
@Psyche: I agree with cutting Arkillo.
@32_Footsteps:
- X Men Legends: Though the Freudian Excuse is weak, I agree with cutting Kincaid since he did at least love one person.
- System Shock: Was SHODAN really lobotomized? I just thought her Morality Chip was removed, and she realized she should be the god of the world?
- Valkyria Chronicles: Onscreen Giorgios Geld took civilians hostage so he could escape back to his country. A character accuses him of going to kill them once they outlive their usefulness, but that's conjecture on her part. Everything is Offscreen Villainy. I vote cut.
- Everything else I agree with.
edited 25th Sep '12 8:28:17 PM by OccasionalExister
The Wanderer
Umaril the Unfeathered was basically going around enslaving humanity like the rest of the Ayleids. As for what would happen if the gods (Meaning the Nine Divines) died, technically they're already dead and only exist as echoes. However, it's likely that their complete destruction would unmake Mundus and revert it back to Oblivion, since it is their bodies that make up the planet. As for his ultimate plans, he doesn't appear to have any, and I would consider him fairly sadistic.
edited 25th Sep '12 8:30:32 PM by rmctagg09
Eating a Vanilluxe will give you frostbite.
Enslaving humanity was done in the past, so it's Offscreen Villainy. Also, Umaril was never there for the temple attacks, he always sends his servants. You don't actually see Umaril until you fight him, and trying to kill the protagonist does not make a Complete Monster. The only characterization you get from fighting him is him exclaiming (in the Aylied tongue) your inferiority to him.
edited 25th Sep '12 8:43:09 PM by ChaoticQueen
Also, there would be consequences to the deaths of the Nine Divines. The death of Akatosh would destroy fate, leaving the flow of time unmanaged. The death of Talos, however, would tear Mundus apart, killing all mortal life and leaving Nirn a Death World where only immortal Daedra can survive.
Ok, guys. I just removed the Complete Monster wicks from Pokémon: Zoroark: Master of Illusions, and I honestly have to say, this was a chore.
I mean, almost every time the main villain was mentioned, there's a wick to the page. This is really unnecessary.
We get it. Grings Kodai is a Complete Monster. Just keep it in YMMV. This sort of writing style reeks of And That's Terrible. And that's just really sad.
This is why I decided to clean up the wicks. I thought it'd be best to let the writing speak for itself without relying on a link to Complete Monster just to get readers to understand. That and keeping readers safe from a Sinkhole or two.
On that note, I've noticed a couple of sinkholes to Complete Monster for the recently eliminated Ghetsis. Those definitely should go, right?
Yes, definitely
@Krystoff, we can simply edit those entries in when the games get released, because games are released every week, as are movies and comics, so if we held off for that reason we would never get around to actually doing it.
Hey..............I found this on the World Of Warcraft YMMV page:
- Quite possibly Garrosh Hellscream in Mists of Pandaria. He essentially sacrifices a considerable number of his troops to maximize Alliance casualties by detonating a mana bomb on Theramore, orders (or at least allows) dissidents to be tortured and killed, and threatens the member races with retribution if they attempt to oppose him. No one is happy with what he is doing, and the Horde only goes along out of fear of retribution.
This behavior has been repeated throughout in warlike societies 2000-700 years ago(policy of Roman Empire, barbarian tribes, Mongols and policy of decimation) but Real Life and Values Dissonance aside, it only makes him a General Ripper. It's clear a hater(and I know this character has a lot) wrote all of this.
edited 26th Sep '12 7:05:26 AM by xie323
Considering that he's slated to be the Final Boss of Mists, I wouldn't disqualify him just yet. We should wait and see just what his Moral Event Horizon will be.
Wait, didn't we have a debate about this in Legend of Korra because they added a character that was proven sympathetic later on(as well as one that WAS outright evil, but most of the accusations were implied)?
It's too early, and we might have to wait until patch 4.3 or 4.4.
I am aware that Blizzard "surrendered" to the haters but we don't know the extent of the MEH yet.
edited 26th Sep '12 7:00:11 AM by xie323
Wait, so someone else finished examining the main video game page and added the good examples from the sandbox?
If so great, Uni took a lot of my time away so it would have been another week before I would have enough free time to try it.