The Grand Unified Appearance Trope Clean-up:

At most cute tall boots on magical girls is already covered by Frills of Justice I think.

edited 10th Apr '15 4:54:38 PM by DragonQuestZ

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Really? That seems like kind of a sweeping statement, considering that we have an entire index of Fanservice Costumes. Honestly I wouldn't entirely mind losing them - it's not as bad as you'd expect, but the examples often still tend towards the mildly drooly - but that seems like a huge change.

Well sometimes even those costumes can show something other than just being there. The Sexy Santa Dress lets you know what time of year it's supposed to be.

Not sure about something like Cleavage Window though.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Fanservice is itself a trope. We don't need to make individual tropes for every single variation in how it's done.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

I agree. That's why I think if there is another significant aspect to a fanservice trope (what I wrote about Sexy Santa Dress), it works as a Sub-Trope. Otherwise it can probably be merged (what I meant about Cleavage Window).

Although should this be for another long term projects thread, where we can focus on it better?

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

x6 It is a character design trope. They could wear normal shoes, and quite a few do, but they specifically wear those. The 'does not get complaints from parents' level of Fanservice is the likely reason yes but not the only reason.

It like Giant Waist Ribbon and other tropes are a staple of costuming and getting the look right, along with other costume design choices such as Magic Skirt vs Modesty Shorts vs both, the purpose is visual but it is still very much a trope along with the rest of the Costume Tropes.

x5 Frills of Justice actually links to Thigh High Boots in its listing.

I agree that Fanservice tropes in general need help. I wrote about some problems I've noticed about Most Common Superpower in another thread. A thread dedicated to fixing them could be a good solution.

Agreed.

---

Okay, here's what I got.

Women with Power:

• X Men:
  • Phoenix and Dark Phoenix: Donning thigh high boots, Jean Grey became one of the most overpowered characters in Marvel universe, a terrifying genocidal cosmic force.
  • Storm: Another mutant powerhouse, among the most powerful mutants on Earth.
  • Lilandra: Was the ruler of the alien Shi'ar Empire which encompassed millions of planets, with Professor X as her consort.
• Captain Marvel:
  • Ms. Marvel (Carol Danvers): During the time she wore thigh high boots, she was a powerful and somewhat antiheroic character, one of Marvel's most prominent heroines. After becoming more one-dim— ahem, idealized, she ditched the thigh high boots.
  • Phyla-Vell: A former Quasar and Captain Marvel. One of the most flawed (but very powerful) Captain Marvels.
  • Phyla's girlfriend, Moondragon, started wearing these lately. She's also the most powerful human telepath in Marvel Universe.
• Thor:
  • Sif: A powerful asgardian warrior goddess. She also wears a toned-down version of these in the movieverse.
  • Valkyrie: Another asgardian warrior goddess, the most powerful of all valkyries.
• Green Lantern:
  • Jade: Her body channeled Starheart, an energy similar to Green Lanterns'. Except she could channel an unlimited amount of energy without recharging.
• Wonder Woman:
  • Wonder Woman's recent redesign.
• Honorable mention: Uranus from Bloody Roar, a bonus boss who's the most powerful Zoanthrope in the game's universe.

Male version:

• Marvel:
  • Kang the Conqueror: A time-travelling archvillain with access to all future technology.
  • Mr. Sinister: A near-invincible supervillain with many powers.
  • Gladiator: Sometimes enemy, sometimes ally. Basically, a non-boyscout Superman, able to lift buildings and break planets.
• DC:
  • Darkseid: The "big bad" of DC, one of the most powerful characters in DC universe.

Dominatrix inspired costumes:

• Black Queen and White Queen from X Men.
• Goblin Queen (and Goblin King) from X Men.
• Malice from Fantastic Four.
• Silk Spectre from Watchmen (a parody of this trend).
• Some of Catwoman's costumes.
• Mary Marvel's "corrupted" costume.
• Honorable mention: Dark Queen from Battletoads.

Unclear:

• Starfire from Teen Titans.
• Psylocke from X Men.
• Helen Parr and Violet Parr from The Incredibles.

edited 12th Apr '15 4:12:57 AM by Rjinswand

Why are you just listing comic books? Are you just familiar with those?

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

As I said earlier, I'm not sure if this trend is applicable to any other media than Western superhero comics. I've included a couple examples from other media (as "honorable mentions") that seem to fit, though.

edited 11th Apr '15 10:27:40 AM by Rjinswand

1. The work name should receive emphasis, not the characters.
2. Narrative conventions have some meaning behind them, some signal that the creator is trying to send the audience. You haven't identified a signal beyond fanservice, which is already a trope.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Why should the work name get more emphasis?

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Harry Potter is the name of a character. Harry Potter refers to the series that he stars in.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Oh, you meant the markup. Okay.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Sorry for messing up the markup, fixed.

As I said, I'm not quite sure if there's a trope, or it is just a big coincidence. My idea was that there may be correlation between this appearance element, and the type of character who wears it. ^note If it's a trope, it's only valid for superhero comics, because campy costume elements like capes, opera gloves or buccaneer-style boots have long been the norm in that setting. In most other settings, THB would look too campy, and thus wouldn't have the same meaning. Namely, it's a way to show that a woman (or sometimes, a man) is very powerful, and not exactly a goodie-two-shoes (whether she's a villain, an antihero, or just a morally ambiguous hero). ^note The other common reason for using THB is in costumes inspired by BDSM, as part of a "dominatrix" image. I've put them a separate list, so as to avoid confusion.

As for Fanservice, I'd say there's no direct correlation between it and THB. Some of the characters I've mentioned had some of the least fanservice-y costumes while wearing them. And while THB can be used for fanservice (e.g. to create Zettai Ryouiki), it doesn't happen all the time.

edited 12th Apr '15 4:45:00 AM by Rjinswand

Looking at the whole page, it's a mess. Even for what the description shows, the Square Peg Round Trope examples are rampant (assuming the wicks will be just as bad), and even the description seems to state more than one trope.

Tall boots used to emphasize Shes Got Legs could work. Then it's not mere fanservice but also a way to draw attention to those parts of a character (in the same way that other visual tricks are used to help draw attention to certain parts of a scene).

Overtly sexual character wearing boots above the knee could work.

By the way, if they are below the knew and have flat heels (such as Jean Grey wearing them in her Mini Dress Of Power outfit), those are "go go boots", which was a popular fashion trend in the 60s and 70s.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

...I think whatever else is done with the trope, we should all be able to agree that examples of boots that don't rise above the knee shouldn't qualify.

Yeah, not reaching the thigh doesn't even fit the trope as it is.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

The Jean Grey example on the page is probably just wrong. At least I don't remember any Jean Grey costume with THB before she became Phoenix.

I think that should just be a note on the Shes Got Legs page. Shes Got Legs is about emphasizing legs; accentuating them via a costume element is just one way to do it.

I'm not quite sure about this. Do we have any examples? We discussed Phoenix, but even there it wasn't definite.

As for possible THB meanings, here's what I've gathered so far:

• Antiheroic or morally ambiguous women with notable power (in superhero comics) ^note (rare male examples tend to be more villainous)
• A type of fanservice costume inspired by the BDSM dominatrix fetish (in superhero comics)
• Part of some Hotter and Sexier costume redesigns (e.g. Huntress), possibly added to accentuate Shes Got Legs
• Pirate
• anything else?

Agreed.

edited 12th Apr '15 2:02:02 PM by Rjinswand

"accentuating them via a costume element is just one way to do it. "

That's part of what makes a Sub-Trope. A similar effect is achieved, but through a method that differs from others.

Now wearing boots might not be enough to make a sub trope; I just think being one method is not itself an argument against it.

edited 12th Apr '15 2:42:59 PM by DragonQuestZ

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

So... should we do a crowner?

I think leaving this as it is would be off the table, so we could put up new possible definitions, and whichever ones get enough upvotes get split off with the appropriate examples (which would not be limited to just the ones we discussed). If none get enough upvotes, we cut the whole thing.

Does that look good?

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Agreed.

Maybe list ~3 examples of each proposed trope, so that everyone could see whether it works.

edited 13th Apr '15 7:09:25 AM by Rjinswand

Okay, for using it as a particular way to emphasize Shes Got Legs (particular in that we see less skin of the legs than other methods):

• The Incredibles: Elastigirl's original outfit included red boots just above the knee. When Edna Mode makes new suits for the family, Elastigirl's and Violet's outfits include boots that go even higher up the thigh.
• X-Men, despite the various costume changes for the members, has a few clear examples.
  • Storm's original Leotard of Power outfit includes boots just above the knee.
  • When Jean Grey upgraded from Marvel Girl to Phoenix, she also swapped her Mini Dress Of Power with the go go boots to Sensual Spandex with boots halfway up her thighs.
• In Code Geass, Kallen joins the Black Knights, and her new outfit includes black boots just above the knee.
• The main character of Æon Flux wears long boots with part of her particular Stripperiffic outfit (between her mid thighs and her chest is almost all bare skin).

Overtly sexual (whether or not she's a dominatrix):

• Miyuki-chan in Wonderland has no shortage of sexually driven ladies, but most are playful about it. The Queen of Hearts is instead a dominatrix and her outfit includes leather boots just above the knee.
• In the Pokémon series, James ran away from an Arranged Marriage. His would-be fiance acts prim and proper in public, but in private she wears dominatrix gear including boots to her thigh.
• In the Soul Series games Ivy is an overtly kinky lady, and the majority of her outfits include boots above the knee.

I didn't include the white or black queen from X-Men since, if nothing else, their boot lengths are inconsistent (in that they aren't always above the knee), even when the rest of the costume doesn't change.

edited 13th Apr '15 12:16:57 PM by DragonQuestZ

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

My two cents, if I may.

Her original outfit is a good example of this trope, using THB and a leotard to create Zettai Ryouiki. But how does her Incredibles costume fit here (and Violet's costume for that matter, which has the similar design)?

Storm is a good example, once again a leotard and THB create Zettai Ryouiki. But how does Phoenix fit? How does Shes Got Legs come into play here? Compare that costume to her Black Queen costume, right in its firt appearance◊ you can see how the reader's attention is drawn to her legs... by leaving them bare, and covering the rest in dark leather. So, her most Shes Got Legs moment happens when she loses the THB.

These are solid examples, again THB are used to create Zettai Ryouiki.

---

This wording seems too vague to me. I suspect most of these examples are just variations on a dominatrix theme (e.g. the Miyuki-chan and Pokemon examples). So wouldn't it be better to just list them as dominatrix-inspired costumes?

That statement also seems a bit vague. How does her "kinkiness" manifest, in-universe? I'd say Ivy's design is also dominatrix-inspired. Her weapon resembles a whip, and some critics have directly compared her to a dominatrix.

Compare her to Sofia from Battle Arena Toshinden, who is also her series' resident sex symbol and wields a whip. She wears THB and a clearly dominatrix-inspired costume in her first appearance, later switching them for even more ridiculous outfits. The Soul Series was a spiritual successor to Battle Arena Toshinden, so the similarities aren't coincidental.

Black Queen's costume design has been very inconsistent. Yes, its first iteration had small boots. White Queen's original costume had THB, and retained them in most iterations, so I'd say she fits.

edited 13th Apr '15 1:55:08 PM by Rjinswand

Part of your counterargument seems to be that we have to see some skin on the legs to count. That would actually be a variation. The crowner could decide whether the legs have to be bare above the boots or not.

And the white queen doesn't count for the sexual one because that was a retcon of the character in recent years. Before then she was closer to The Baroness, and even after the change the boots weren't what was supposed to show it.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

What would the trope be about without Zettai Ryouiki? "THB automatically makes a character sexier"? That's a bit subjective, and will just turn into a list of all characters wearing THB ever.

Objection! Right in her first appearance, she was a member of the BDSM-inspired Hellfire Club. She started as a dominatrix-inspired character. And in her first appearance◊, she already wears a dominatrix-inspired costume with THB.

Also, please read the addition about Battle Arena Toshinden I made to my previous post.