Wick cleanup: Sliding Scale Of Anti Heroes

Bump.

Tangential question: If a Villain Protagonist is in a Black-and-Gray Morality-leaning-on-Black-and-Black Morality setting, and the people he fights range from both villains worse than he is to morally-upright heroes, does he count as a Type V Anti-Hero?

edited 27th Aug '11 1:33:16 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

I would say yes.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

Okay, so.... I think we still have a few things left to do, like YKTTWing a few subtropes, right?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

This might be a good time to point out that Heroic Sociopath is getting split (EVENTUALLY) between "evil character fighting for good, who's evil is Played for Laughs," and "evil character fighting for good, who's evil is not Played for Laughs." I've never understood the difference between the second one and the darker versions of Anti-Hero, so maybe the two concepts should be merged? That might be enough to give Heroic Sociopath 's TRS the kick in the pants it needs.

We've got type 1 defined as Classical Antihero and type 2 is Knight in Sour Armor.

Is there a difference between type 3 and Good Is Not Nice, or can we just use Good Is Not Nice for type 3?

YKTTW drafts:

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Type III Anti-Hero

Laconic: He'll always fight for good. Just don't get on his bad side.

Early Development Phase. Rolling Updates all but certain. Do We Have This? / Should We Have This? Probably Needs A Better Description; definately Needs A Better Name.

Per this conversation and crowner, we are proposing splitting the Sliding Scale Of Anti Heroes into its component types.

• Type 1: a heroic character who has unambiguous intentions and actions, but must overcome personal limitations to be effective as a hero. Launched as Classical Antihero.
• Type 2: a heroic character who has generally unambiguous intentions and actions, but must overcome their own cynicism to be effective as a hero. Launched as Knight in Sour Armor.
• Type 3: a character who is morally unambiguous, but their actions are morally ambiguous (This YKTTW).
• Type 4: a character with heroic goals, but abiguous morals and actions.
• Type 5: a character who is on the side of the heroes, but is not heroic in any other sense of the word.

A Type III Anti Hero is a character who is unambiguously on the side of the heroes, but they routinely commit morally ambiguous acts on a Good Is Not Nice level. They may recieve an occasional "What the Hell, Hero?" moment from more idealistic characters, but their methods are usually seen by the audience as justified by the end of the story.

Unlike their actions, this character's intentions and morality are unambiguously on the side of good. They will not take pleasure in their dips into moral ambiguity (beyond the satisfaction that when others chose not to act, they chose to confront evil), seeing it as Dirty Business to a heroic end, and they invariably have certain lines they will not cross. This does not mean, however, that they aren't Jerkasses to the people around them; this type of Anti-Hero doesn't usually play well with others.

Examples:

Anime and Manga:

• Integra Hellsing. In one of the defining moments for her character, Alucard and Seras are holed up in a hotel that is being swarmed by a team under Millennium's control, and there's no way for them to get out without killing innocent humans. Up until this point, Integra has scrupulously avoided this, but when she receives a call from Alucard and he proposes unleashing himself on them, she agrees. After hanging up she immediately asks Walter if she made the right choice.

film:

• Batman, as portrayed in The Dark Knight. Killing a suspect? No way in hell if he can help it. Not rescuing someone because they'll probably escape and kill people if they're allowed to live? If it comes to that. Dangling them over a ledge and threatening to kill them if they don't cooperate? All in a day's work.
• Dirty Harry.

—>I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?

Literature:

• Arguably, Harry Potter. While never wavering from the side of good, except for an occasional moment of teenage angst, his methods usually involve breaking school rules. He spares Peter Pettigrew's life life only to condemn him to what might be a Fate Worse than Death ("He can go to Azkaban. If anyone deserves that place, he does."). And later, he casts the Cruciatus and the Imperius curses - effectively torturing and mind-controlling people.

Live-Action Television:

• Dr. House. As much as Dr. House wants everyone to think otherwise, many episodes show that he does genuinely care, and has on several occasions put himself in harm's way to save the patient's life. In spite of his genuine goodness, however, he pretty much regards anyone he meets as an idiot, and tells them that to their face.

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Type IV Anti-Hero

Laconic: Being a hero is his calling. Villainy and vice are his hobbies.

Early Development Phase. Rolling Updates all but certain. Do We Have This? / Should We Have This? Probably Needs A Better Description; definately Needs A Better Name.

Alternate names:

• ?

Per this conversation and crowner, we are proposing splitting the Sliding Scale Of Anti Heroes into its component types.

• Type 1: a heroic character who has unambiguous intentions and actions, but must overcome personal limitations to be effective as a hero. Launched as Classical Antihero.
• Type 2: a heroic character who has generally unambiguous intentions and actions, but must overcome their own cynicism to be effective as a hero. Launched as Knight in Sour Armor.
• Type 3: a character who is morally unambiguous, but their actions are morally ambiguous. Good Is Not Nice?
• Type 4: a character with heroic goals, but abiguous morals and actions (This YKTTW).
• Type 5: a character who is on the side of the heroes, but is not heroic in any other sense of the word.

A Type IV Anti Hero is a character who is a hero in the sense that they are on the side of good, but both their actions and morals are ambiguous at best. Rather than striving to overcome their flaws, this character tends to revel in them. If a Lovable Rogue, they will steal not out of necessity but because they enjoy the challenge. If The Casanova, they'll break hearts not as part of a larger plan, but because they like the lifestyle. Their actions are less "Shoot the Dog", and more "Kick the Dog for running my best shirt", and they might come dangerously close to being a Knight Templar or Token Evil Teammate on occasion. Classical Antiheroes, the Knight in Sour Armor, and even the Good Is Not Nice hero will definitely give this character a What the Hell, Hero? moment or two.

However, unlike the Heroic Sociopath who sees heroism as an excuse for getting away with mayhem or a Magnificent Bastard who helps the heroes as part of a Xanatos Gambit, this character's motivation for being on the side of good is genuine. They may Kick the Dog, but they'll also volunteer for the dunking chair in the humane society's annual fundraiser, because Even Evil Has Standards.

This type ranges from genuine heroes who take a little too much pleasure from vices that would normally be clearly out of place for one of the good guys, to Villain Protagonists who are only heroes by virtue of fighting for a heroic goal, though they may kick aside an unnecessary number of puppies along the way.

In terms of personality, a TypeIVAntiHero can range from Grumpy Bear to genuinely Affably Evil to Good Is Not Nice to Hero with an F in Good, though he's rarely as grumpy as Good Is Not Nice characters who don't "allow themselves to have a little fun".

Examples:

Anime and Manga:

• In the various Pokemon films, Harmless Villain trio Team Rocket undergo a Redemption Promotion Once an Episode, and honestly enjoy playing on the other side, only to return to Harmless Villainy by the end of the film. However, when they do actually bother to do the right thing, they not only enjoy being good, but they do the right thing for noble reasons.

Film:

• In Pirates Of The Caribbean, Jack Sparrow, who is mostly Chaotic Selfish, but is also quite capable of self - sacrifice.

—>Elizabeth: "...there will come a moment when you have the chance to show it, to do the right thing." —>Jack: "I love those moments, I like to wave at them as they pass by."

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Type V Anti-Hero

Laconic: He'd be a villain if he weren't a hero.

Early Development Phase. Rolling Updates all but certain. Do We Have This? / Should We Have This? Probably Needs A Better Description; definately Needs A Better Name.

Alternate names:

• Hero In Name Only

Per this conversation and crowner, we are proposing splitting the Sliding Scale Of Anti Heroes into its component types.

• Type 1: a heroic character who has unambiguous intentions and actions, but must overcome personal limitations to be effective as a hero. Launched as Classical Antihero.
• Type 2: a heroic character who has generally unambiguous intentions and actions, but must overcome their own cynicism to be effective as a hero. Launched as Knight in Sour Armor.
• Type 3: a character who is morally unambiguous, but their actions are morally ambiguous. Good Is Not Nice?
• Type 4: a character with heroic goals, but abiguous morals and actions.
• Type 5: a character who is on the side of the heroes, but is not heroic in any other sense of the word (This YKTTW).

A Type V Anti Hero is a character who is a hero in the sense that they are on the side of good, but both their actions and morals are ambiguous at best, and their intentions are hardly heroic either. They are heroes only because they are not in direct conflict with the good guys, and they are pointed at much worse villains; without that condition, they are simply a Villain Protagonist. They are few moral lines they wouldn't cross, and those principles they do stand by are often ones they made up themselves. If on a team of otherwise straighter heroes, they're often in a Heroic Sociopath or Enemy Mine role, since characters like this are typically too bloodthirsty or extreme for more morally straightforward heroes, or, alternatively, they just don't care about the heroes' goal. The heroes might work with them if they're up against a villain who is a significant threat, or even to keep an eye on the Type V Anti Hero, to make sure they don't become a serious threat in future. This type of "hero" isn't adverse to working for the Big Bad as a Dragon with an Agenda or Psycho for Hire, if they think it will further their goal; however, they will usually betray the villain if the villain's plan interferes with their own.

This character differs from a Type IV Anti Hero in that their motivation is more sinister in nature. While a Type IV Anti Hero might be The Casanova because he enjoys the sex, this character breaks hearts For the Evulz... and the sex. More importantly, peerhaps, a Type V Anti Hero's goals are typically entirely selfish. The Type IV Anti Hero honestly cares about the lives that might be lost if the Doomed Hometown they're trying to save gets destroyed; the Type V Anti Hero cares because he'd been planning to rob a bank there next week.

Examples:

Comic Books:

• In the Spider Man spinoff "Venom vs Carnage" the title characters, who unite against a new foe simply because both decide they hate the new villain more than they hate each other. Venom explains the situation as:

—>Temporary. VERY temporary.

Webcomics:

• Chaotic Evil halfling ranger/barbarian Belkar Bitterleaf from The Order Of The Stick, who became a hero largely in order to kill people For the Evulz.

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edited 28th Aug '11 12:26:02 AM by FrodoGoofballCoTV

Look good to me.

Ukrainian Red Cross

Yeah, it looks really good. I might stress a little more that Type Vs can also be more amoral than immoral; some are Type Vs because they do good things with bad intentions, while others simply have different intentions not concerned with either good or evil. A Type IV still has heroic intentions, they just like to indulge in a little villainy as well.

edited 28th Aug '11 11:12:57 AM by tropetown

"Villain Protagonists who are only heroes by virtue of fighting for a heroic goal" sounds more V than IV.

Where do you think Mr. Vice Guy falls? I think I've seen it as a Type II trope, but it could just as easily describe a Type IV, though it would be a rather dark case.

Mr. Vice Guy seems like he would fit more as a Type IV, depending on how dark his vice is and how much control he has over it. A Type II Mr. Vice Guy would probably have something harmless as a vice, like a coffee addiction, or would control it enough not to allow it to interfere with his morals. A Type IV Mr. Vice Guy, on the other hand, might either have a more dangerous vice, or would have this vice undermine his morality; an example would be an alcoholic Mr. Vice Guy who got drunk one night and hurt someone close to him.

I could see Mr. Vice Guy as going across the levels.

Mr. Vice Guy as a Classical Antihero:

• Po from Kung Fu Panda, and his overeating.
• The Hobbits in The Lord Of The Rings, lamenting the fact that sneaking past the enemy through swampland doesn't come with a catered "second brekfast".

Mr. Vice Guy as a Knight in Sour Armor:

• Miroku from Inu Yasha, who flirts constantly, asking other women if they would consider bearing his children in front of his girlfriend, but in a life or death fight, he's as honorable as a Knight in Shining Armor.
• Scrooge Mc Duck, who can be a combination of Uncle Pennybags and Badass Grandpa when presented with a clear choice between good and evil, but constantly gripes about how much money he's spending, and when he's got free time, he spends it here.
• Han Solo, once he decides to toss his hat in with the rebels for good.
• Porthos from The Three Musketeers.

Mr. Vice Guy as a Type III Anti-Hero:

• Bruce Wayne, as portrayed in Batman Begins. He makes a fool of himself and is regarded as an irresponsible playboy by the community. At first, his irresponsibility is a character flaw, but he learns to use it as a tool.
• Possibly James Bond: he's a Casanova type, and is fairly unscrupulous in terms of methodology. However, he tends to only sleep with women who can "take care of themselves", thus minimalizing the pain of the broken hearts he leaves, and as a matter of personal honor he won't shoot to a kill civilian when he can help it. He fully enjoys the lifestyle of a rich playboy using government funds, but it's always to further the mission.

Mr. Vice Guy as a Type IV Anti-Hero:

• Han Solo, in his days as a smuggler for hire.
• Jack Sparrow, as noted above. He'll take Wine, Women, and Song, and he'd like a round of rum with that, and he'll rob the poor box to pay for it. But he's still unambiguously on the side of good.
• Lupin III is mostly a Villain Protagonist, but when faced with a Moral Dilemma, he shows his heroic side.
• Mob boss Eddie Valentine of The Rocketeer: "It matters to me. I may not make an honest buck, but I'm 100% American. I don't work for no two-bit Nazi."

Mr. Vice Guy as a Type V Antihero:

• Belkar Bitterleaf, as listed above.

edited 28th Aug '11 3:04:22 PM by FrodoGoofballCoTV

I see what you mean; however, it would be much more difficult for a Type III to be a Mr. Vice Guy as well without slipping into Type IV. Because Type III Anti Heroes already perform morally ambiguous actions, revelling in a darker aspect of himself, aka a vice, would put him squarely into Type IV territory. They would need to have an unobtrusive vice, and it would not be able to undermine their moral code if they were to remain a Type III. Much like a Type II, except that a Type II isn't in danger of their softer vices undermining their moral code, since this code is typically more rigid than a Type III.

^Good point.

• For the Type I, vice is just another Loser Archetype quality one must overcome to be an effective hero.
• For the Type II, vices are just an excuse to gripe. "Honor before pleasure" yields stable moral character.
• For the Type III, vice is just another tool.
• The Type IV is the point where the vice is enough to actually make one a villain, but there are other goals.
• The Type V doesn't care whether or not their vices overshadow their morals. They care about their own goals.

Anyway, I'll go ahead and launch the YKTTW's tomorrow morning with the input above if there are no objections.

Yeah, sounds great. We might want to come up with names for Type III-V before launching anything, though.

How about:

For Type III: Purely Pragmatic Hero: they fight evil pragmatically, ignoring standards of behavior that restrict their ability to obtain their goals, but those goals are just as noble as those of The Cape. Type IV and V are also pragmatic, but in a different way.

For Type IV: Unscrupulous Hero: a hero with no scruples, they aren't worried about the fact that they themselves are essentially villains fighting for noble causes and motivations. Type III and V are also unscrupulous, but in a different way.

Type V: Hero In Name Only: they're heroes, but have no clearly heroic qualities at all.

The other thing I think I'll need before launch is a good explanation of how:

• Type III differs from, is a supertrope of, is a subtrope of, or overlaps with, Good Is Not Nice.
• Type V differs from, is a supertrope of, is a subtrope of, or overlaps with, Designated Hero and Wild Card.

Right now I'm kinda stuck on that.

EDIT: YKTTW:

• Hero In Name Only
• Unscrupulous Hero
• Purely Pragmatic Hero

edited 29th Aug '11 11:42:05 AM by FrodoGoofballCoTV

Type I Vs aren't necessarily villains though. A lot of them still do what they do out of necessity, even if they are more habitual about it than Type II Is.

^Yeah, that's a good point. It's tricky, though. I tried to incorporate the idea that you don't have to be a Heel–Face Turn to be a Type IV in the YKTTW.

The thing with a Type IV is, although they are willing to Shoot the Dog in pursuit of the greater good, they might also enjoy doing it, as well. If he joined the heroes only to do bad things with impunity, then he'd be a Type V, but if he joined because he believed in the cause (though he still quite enjoys his personal vices) he would then be a Type IV. I think the tagline for Unscrupulous Hero summarizes it perfectly: being a hero and having noble intentions are what he does, he just enjoys being bad on the side. It's somewhat similar to the Well-Intentioned Extremist, except that Well Intentioned Extremists don't tend to do bad things that have nothing to with their final goal, while this type of hero revels in it even as he fights against villains.

I like Unscrupulous Hero and Purely Pragmatic Hero as names; I think we can do better than Hero In Name Only for Type V, though.

edited 29th Aug '11 11:12:04 PM by tropetown

I think it would be more accurate to say that he has few qualms with performing questionable actions.

Yes, I'd agree. It's more that they aren't bothered by doing bad things, though Type IIIs may share similar feelings as well, thinking that their actions are Dirty Business, but justified. A Type IV just won't always be concerned if his ambiguous or villainous actions are morally justifiable or not, though to prevent Trope Decay from people flanderizing this to mean "a hero who did something bad once and didn't care", I would stress that these types tend to revel in their vices and flaws as well.

edited 29th Aug '11 11:19:24 PM by tropetown

Well-Intentioned Extremist is generally more of a Type III Antivillain rather than any type of Anti-Hero.

Designated Hero is a character who is portrayed as being heroic, but seems more like an Anti-Hero at best and a Villain Protagonist at worst. It could overlap with Type V, but it isn't the same thing.

Wild Card is for a character who constantly flips between good and evil, depending on which side has the upper hand. Again, it could overlap with Type V, but it isn't the same thing.

Yes, I agree. Most Designated Heroes are Type IV Anti Heroes, or straight Villain Protagonists; a Type V is only on the side of good for a reason that has nothing to do with being good.

edited 4th Sep '11 12:22:13 PM by tropetown

Designated Heroes are canonically Heroes. Is impossible a Designated Hero be a Villain Protagonist outside Alternate Character Interpretation.

That's what I meant; but Designated Hero implies that there is some level of Alternate Character Interpretation going on anyways, since the trope means that a character who is being presented in-story as a hero is being interpreted as arguably not being one. This means that it isn't a stretch for a Designated Hero to be a Villain Protagonist when scrutinized, just not a canonical Villain Protagonist.

edited 4th Sep '11 12:34:51 PM by tropetown

I think we're going to have problems with type V. As the page says, the line with Villain Protagonist is very thin, ans seriously, seeing how tropes like Nightmare Fuel and Unwinnable by Insanity always bring problems...

Anyway, why don't use the examples already in the page for the ones we're creating now? I don't want to see all that work wasted.

edited 29th Oct '11 9:27:02 AM by morenohijazo

My plan is, as soon as the YKTTW for III - V are launched, I'll start moving the old examples and to the new trope pages. My concern is that the examples as it currently stands are a bit of a mess, and we'll need to trim the questionable ones. But definately we should keep the good examples on the main page somewhere.