Avoiding a Villain Sue

So, I have a villain character I really like and have recently promoted from minor badguy to Big Bad. He's a Magnificent Bastard, a Well-Intentioned Extremist, and I am attempting to make him a Badass, though that's fairly subjective, so I'm not sure that it'll work. He's not the fighting type, being a Glass Cannon assassin, but he's got one the highest body counts so far, second only to an Eldritch Abomination. He is also manipulating the two protagonists into furthering his schemes. I've made sure he's not particularly attractive, though he's not ugly either. He looks average in every way, except for his sort of small stature, and I think that's helping keep the Sueness down. Still, it't kinda tough, considering he's my favorite character I've written.

Show that he's not perfect. A character can still be a badass Magnificent Bastard even if he makes mistakes now and then. Let him be surprised, or screw up for a reason other than "good guys are stronger". Also, give him a flaw other than general evil/selfishness. Maybe his desire to make the hero suffer leads to him making a poor decision? Maybe he under-estimates them?

Also, avoid excessive smugness or condescension. Unless he's done something incredibly impressive/clever, it can make him come across as a Smug Snake.

edited 14th Dec '10 10:28:46 AM by RTaco

He's got three lines in the whole story, I think smugness isn't an issue. Also, his fatal flaw is wrath. He goes FAR out of his way to hurt people, which ends up killing him.

Then use that weakness to advance the story somehow.

Also, don't forget to get him a conflicting force, like another enemy, an internal conflict, etc.

Giving him a small stature and average looks will keep the Sue-ness down. But carry that out-don't just mention it in one of the descriptions. If women are still frequently attracted to him, it just makes the character even more unlikeable. If you must have women attracted to him for the plot to work, have them state what other qualities they find attractive, so it's not so irritating.

God, you sound just like me. My Big Bad is also a Magnificent Bastard and an assassin. Trouble is, he's also a shapeshifter, but that's to be expected when you work for a demon god.

So yeah, just like your guy.

@Ultrayellow: He's far from a chick magnet. Most people tend not to realize he's even there, which is why he took up assassination as a profession. He gets lost in a crowd easily. As for opposing forces, there are those. Namely, the two protagonists and the POV-character Eldritch Abomination, once he reveals his actual scheme. Like I said, I'm trying to avoid it, but I definitely favor that character.

One thing to do is to simply make him not the only villain. If he's not hogging all the spotlight it'll temper the storm or whatever a little bit.

If his main flaw is wrath, a good way to show this is to have him mess up a couple of times due to being too consumed in his own anger that he makes a mistake. Having the guy get his ass kicked every now and then avoids Villain Sue territory. Even his straight wins should have the heroes putting up at least some resistance. Don't make them look bad whenever he is around.

If he is easily lost in the crowd, you can give him a bit of sympathy by showing he is a lonely person but not to the point where we are expected to excuse his actions. A nice Moral Event Horizon should do the trick.

Necromancy! :D

I recommend writing their death scene immediately, and foreshadowing to it vaguely from the beginning. That way if a death scene does happen, it's epic.

And if it doesn't, the writer still isn't under the impression the character is immortal/invincible, and doesn't write the character that way.

I have a villain who is good at strategy, and has a high IQ. She's a perfectionist, who gets visibly mad when she makes even a small error, IE forgetting an object she left behind, or even when something goes well, but she didn't cause it. She doesn't understand compassion or love. She wants to be admired by her leader. At one point she seriously damages her arm thinking she if she is not perfect, she doesn't deserve a perfect body. She automatically thinks of people as lower as her, and one point, cuts of a persons hand, because she mutilated her arm.She might teleport to small islands, because this is a hetalian dark fic. She is supposed to serve as a foil for the characters who have trouble with their feelings. There is no romance or respect given, though she does became hated later. I would like constructive criticism or something please. Thank you.

edited 28th Oct '13 10:21:50 AM by emmmapink3

I recall disliking the use of this this trope by name, since some people associate, "powerful and smart villain" with it. A villain can be incredibly powerful and good at what they do without being a villain sue. In fact, I'd say it would be encouraged given a villain that doesn't act as a real threat, isn't all that good a villain at all. But to keep the villain from becoming a real Villain Sue, you need to get inside their heads, and ask yourself:

What sort of emotions do they feel, what is their drive, how do they react when they don't get what they want, what blockades do they face and how does it affect them?

If the answers to these questions is a big fat NOTHING, then I'm afraid they truly are something of a villain sue. But, if this antagonist has doubts, throws temper tantrums or even cries. Then he/she can be as much of a character as your protagonist. How you show this varies depending on how your story is played out and what the character is really like.

edited 29th Oct '13 7:47:18 AM by Coheed

Thank you Coheed. She is a very esteemed character who craves the attention of her pears and thinks the only people can be cared about are people who are perfect. She is not perfect, and the fact that many of characters DO care about each other, is a driving force of her conflicts. She doesn't know anything about the personalities about people in general, only their motivations and how best to manipulate one. She likes manipulating people because she feels like she is in control. She is a capable person, it's that she have more of chance if she could control her feelings. She lost the device to guide her through her mission, so she wants to do something to make up for it like take over the world. Thank you. I'm gonna like this fic. And I'll read yours. Sorry if I misspelt your name. I'll read your fic. I fixed your name.

edited 29th Oct '13 11:53:11 AM by emmmapink3

...why is he 'wrathful' and vindictive?

Got an idea, but want to avoid sueishness on it.

The premise: Juxtapose a tragic Type 2 Anti-Villain that desperately needs a hug and said character being very frightening to the audience. How does one go about making a True Neutral character scary WITHOUT Blue-and-Orange Morality or being some sort of Cosmic Horror style character.

The concept: A powerful Dark Magical Girl specializing in lightning and wind magic who's inherent powers exploded into being when she was seven in the midst of a tragedy that killed her family (neither she nor her powers are the culprit). For 9 years, she was feared and persecuted as a witch. Whether through cruel fate, misfortune or other circumstances, her attempts at being a heroine to aleveate her prediciment blew up in her face, eventually causing a Despair Event Horizon.

Agenda: Is more of a reactive antagonist that only seeks her self preservation and to be left alone.

Quirks/Personality: Short tempered and very paranoid. The chief sign she has killing intent is when she becomes cold, dead silent, starts giving the source of her anger an icy Death Glare, and slowly walks toward them, staff on the ready. Possesses an inner sweet side only shown to those deemed worthy of her trust. Has a Morality Pet in the form of one of the protagonist's younger brother, who's one of the few people to ever be sincerely nice to her. Her love for said Morality Pet is intended to juxtapose a sincere redeeming/humanizing factor with horror since she's also a Yandere. It's not the pet that has to worry about it, its those she deems a threat to him that need to be afraid of her Yandere traits, for when she sees him in danger, she gets.....quite.......VICIOUS.....to put it lightly. In one such example involving a biker gang she has the pet run away and not look back, then causes one biker's bike to explode by penetrating its fuel tank with lightning. Then conjures a wind pinwheel and flings it at another biker, which blows himm towards a brick wall with the repeated high speed rotational friction reducing the biker to the consistency of ground meat and the bike to shrapnel. The leader is knocked off the bike via being impaled with the 1st biker's weapon by a high speed wind gust. She then rapidly reduces the temperature of the impaling weapon (which is metal and sopping wet due to the rain) before turning the clouds above her into thunder clouds, resulting in the impaling weapon becoming a make shift lightning rod.

Strengths: Both highly intelligent and creative when it comes to her powers. Boxing Lessons For Super Man taken to Magneto grade. Actively learns about electricty and meterology in order to get new ideas on how to use her powers.

Weaknesses: Paranoia, very poor at close quarters combat, and a Glass Cannon.

Okay. I am seeing more description and listing of things happening to her and not so much in the way of motivation and psychology. Why a biker gang? For that matter, why would a gang of bikers let a sixteen year old be in charge of them? Especially if they're criminals (most bikers aren't). She was persecuted as a witch? How? By whom? If it was family or community, why didn't she just run away or accuse abuse? (Believe it or not, there are children abused under the pretext of them being supernatural in real life today). If it was by the government, why is she free now? Why does she need or want a morality pet? Why did she try and be a heroine? Most teenagers don't.

In short, this doesn't feel so much like 'villain sue' as 'weak and superficial character'. Now maybe you're an awesome writer and can make it work, but for what you're giving me here and now, it's not doing much for me.

edited 2nd Nov '13 6:12:20 AM by Somber

I didn't give much detail and for that I apologize. Perhaps the story concept itself will shed some light. Will write more later.

1. She's not the leader of the biker gang or even a member of it. The gang is more akin to a Hell's Angels style biker gang (those types are VERY bad people, unlike your general biker type). They were after the "pet" seeking ransom since his family is quite wealthy. Their point is as a role of Ass Hole Victim show casing a break from her normal "do only what you must to survive pragmatic anti-villainy" towards a hidden psychotic side to her that shows up when her biggest Berserk Button gets pushed.

2. The story concept is in short a Deconstruction of the anime "Shounen Teenage hero". Think Puella Magi Madoka Magica or Fate Stay Zero. She's like a Shadow Archetype to the protagonist, in this case a Deconstruction of the Dark Magical Girl. She takes a lot of her cues from people like Marona (very dark take on that one), Fate Testarossa, Kyoko Sakura (more due to the garb than anything else as I envision the character being conservatively dressed wearing a pragmatic combat dress with boots with slightly elevated heels since she considers high heels stupid and unpractical), and now that I've watched the series, unintentionally Not So Different from the Kaede persona. However, there's also elements of Decon-Recon Switch and the protagonists get to Earn Your Happy Ending. So does she.

3. The reason she has a Morality Pet is because any properly sympathetic Anti-Villain (except Type IV) needs a Morality Pet to show that they're not such a bad person. Its the heroine's (age 18) younger brother (age 15), not the hero's (age 18), himself a borderline Type II/III Anti-Hero Shell-Shocked Veteran who takes cues from DeathStroke (fighting style), Bat Man (Bad Ass Normal, some elements of personality), Zero (fighting style, personality, devoution to cause), and Homura Akemi (selfless loyality and devoution to cause despite the endless hell it brings).

4. The persecution is mainly community based, and its a rather large city. Her powers can be unsettling, which gives her the title of "Witch of Storms". There's also a creepy aura around her which causes the air around her to be slightly cooler than normal air temperature, and its physically noticeable too.

Psychology: At heart, she really just wants to be accepted. Ironically, despite being very good at killing people, she thoroughly dislikes it, prefering only to kill when she thinks she has to. Has a very cynicall view of humanity, but due to her alignment and possibly remnants of her old self, she thinks collateral damage is senseless, using her wind magic to try to minimize it. After all, its pointless to blindly lash out at random bystanders. Would NEVER hurt a child as she believes Children Are Innocent, being raised to become what they grow up as. Under an circumstances, will not even think about killing the hero because on a subconcious level he reminds her of an older brother she was very close to before the tragedy AND of something she used to be before becoming a Fallen Hero.

She's 100% right, both siblings survived the tragedy but were seperated (mainly due to the explosive way her powers manifested) and had very good reason to believe that the other was dead. Some time after her Heel–Face Turn it gets confirmed and she breaks down into a combination of sad and joyful tears.

edited 2nd Nov '13 7:21:00 PM by magnum12

I decided to get rid of that villain because it wasn't doing me any good because I only stressed out of it and it seemed too mean. I think I'm better at making villains for original fiction than fan fiction. That doesn't mean the story has no villain, there's a powerful darkness entity called nightmare that can destroy the world, however it's locked in a different dimension and can only come out with a physical avatar. I like this version much better. Sorry for not telling you earlier.

I've got a question related to the general topic. If the villain always manages to win, even when the protagonist thinks he's got the upper hand, does that automatically make him a Villain Sue?

I was thinking of a scenario where the villain is a Well-Intentioned Extremist whose ultimate goals are intended to benefit all of humanity, albeit in a morally-ambiguous way. He goes out of his way to make sure that his plans cannot be thwarted by a random rebel, by converting himself into a computer program and spreading himself everywhere - and since the setting is a sci-fi future where everything is computerized, that literally means everywhere. He always keeps close track of everything that can go wrong, and exhibits huge amounts of being a Magnificent Bastard by toying with his enemies and often letting them think they're winning, when in reality he always has everything under control. To the point where, during the ending, even though the player is technically given the choice to join the villain or to ruin his plans, what actually happens during the latter is that the player gets tricked into thinking he won, when in reality it was just a simulation the villain put the player into at some point.

In such a situation, the villain's plans were never really in any danger of being foiled and it doesn't really appear that the villain had to strain themselves to pull it off or anything. So yes, quite possibly a sue.

A key trait of the Villain Sue is, as with most sues, the fact the universe seems to bent itself backwards to make him win. Littlefinger from a Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones is a good example. He's a competent schemer, but while the story makes a point of having even the most careful plots face difficulties (either due counter-planning or simple bad luck), Littlefinger's plots are immune to harm. Even when by all logic something should have gone slightly wrong, they always go off without a hitch no matter how complex. Which is very frustrating when every other character needs to go to Hell and back to have their plans work, while Littlefinger just needs to sit, clasp his fingers and say "JUST AS PLANNED!".

So it feels like he's either precognitive or receiving divine aid from the writer. That is the sign of a Villain Sue of The Chessmaster kind.

"I've got a question related to the general topic. If the villain always manages to win, even when the protagonist thinks he's got the upper hand, does that automatically make him a Villain Sue? "

Depend how it win: if the villian wins a fight against the hero but fall to the ground complete tired and with a lot of punch it, then is not like that

Now if the villian manage to crup stomp the hero with their smug smile intact by pulling new powers...then yeah he is a villian sue, Madara was pretty much this in last arc of Naruto: not matter what the good guy throw at him, the damn son of bitch just kept getting more power, it got annoying after a while(and soon enought, he gets down not by a hero, but a plot divace....ughhhh)