Discussion Main / NuMetal

You've already been banned twice for the same bullshit. How many socks are you gonna rack up>

And they got suspended again. That said, in the future it's better to just report and not reply.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Please refrain from making that assumption, Hastur Hastur Hastur. As far as I can tell they're not a sock.

"Yup. That tasted purple."

Regardless of sock-ness, Sea of Tranquility isn't really a reliable source from what I can gather.

The Other Wiki has it list in a List of Unreliable Sources and the only person standing up for it on that site in a few discussions is basically just parroting "they're reliable" and citing even less reliable sources to back that claim.

Edited by 156.33.241.9 Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

Also, apparently Wikipedia is attracting the same issue with Mudvayne as well. I am inclined to use their judgment and agree that the sources are unreliable - as well as not authoritative.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Don't want to bring outside drama here, but all the Mudvayne issues are likely caused by the same guy (all his edits here are made around the same time he made similar edits in Wikipedia and he's been linking to the same sources), albeit with a new IP from a few months ago. There's currently a Sock Puppet investigation there regarding him.

Edit: It is the same guy from Wikipedia. He has the same IP that he's been using there recently (which I can see thanks to the bug I mentioned some time ago in "Ask the Tropers").

Edited by 86.99.197.72 For we shall slay evil with logic...

They're one of the first entries in every list of acts in the genre that I can find and their sound is right in line with the tenets of the genre. Odd time signatures don't automatically equal progressive.

They're a progressive metal band. Stop vandalizing this page. Their sound is right in line with the tenents of PROG-METAL, not nu-metal. Jazz influences, complex music, experimental time signatures, that is PROG, not nu metal.

Guess what? Nu is a genre that includes a wide amount of influences that all converge into a few basic stylistic tenets, and Mudvayne hits all of them on the head. You're being an obstinate little fuck and you need to leave my edits alone.

Please do not call each other names. It's not worth getting worked up like that.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

He's demonstrated an unwillingness to actually have anything resembling a constructive discussion, so I really have no need to waste my time attempting to have one with him. I'm in favor of the edit being reverted to the way it was before he came along and his being barred from reverting it yet again.

I just checked and on TOW they're classified as being both prog and nu

They are definitely considered part of Nu Metal. Looks like bornofself is involved in an edit war in TOW as well. I've honestly never heard people use progressive metal as Mudvayne's primary genre. It's usually alternative metal or nu metal. It looks like something that's been going on fairly recently. I'm going to add it back, since it seems that only bornofself is strongly against it (and he's probably under a ban for now).

Edited by 176.205.187.171 For we shall slay evil with logic...

Mudvayne's style is a combination of highly technical music, jazz influences, and time signature experimentation, in contrast with traditional rock and metal songs generally being in basic time signatures - 4/4, 3/4, etc., with the aggressive or heavy elements of heavy metal. NOT nu metal.

Many, many sources citing Mudvayne as prog:

http://www.jensmetalpage.com/interviews_mudvayne.htm

http://www.reverbnation.com/mudvayne

http://www.seaoftranquility.org/reviews.php?op=showcontent&id=3160

http://herald-review.com/entertainment/local/hellyeah-journeys-back-to-heavy-stuff/article_ddd5966e-237b-584c-afd2-e5ef6081f499.html

http://www.straight.com/music/makeup-free-mudvayne-rages-against-machine

http://www.mtv.com/news/1457665/mudvayne-reaches-the-end-with-new-album/

http://www.kaos2000.net/interviews/mudvayne/

http://www.fasterlouder.com.au/features/3683/Mudvayne-Get-A-Makeover

http://www.thisisnotascene.com/2014/hellyeah-blood-for-blood/

http://news.postbulletin.com/newsmanager/templates/localnews_story.asp?z=35&a=377870

http://news.bostonherald.com/entertainment/music/general/view/2008_12_09_There_s_no_masking_Mudvayne_s_prog-metal_passion/srvc=home&position=recent

http://www.spin.com/reviews/mudvayne-mudvayne-epic

^That was a sock of bornofself, btw, who has now been UnPersoned and Released to Elsewhere. He's a recurring ban evader, so keep an eye out for "new accounts" with suspiciously similar Single-Issue Wonk behavior.

One thing to bring to attention here, the description has lots of Weasel Words and reads like the page isn't sure exactly what it's talking about. It could use a rewrite into a more "definite" voice.

Edited by 96.234.12.73

I checked the IP that bornofself was using to edit war on TOW with. There was a post made in the discussion page of the Alachua County Library District by someone who said that they were an employee of the library; while the grammar displayed was far better than anything we've seen from them, it's still possible that the person making that post and bornofself are one and the same. Since it's a library, an IP ban is probably not an option, but if the ban evasion persists for a long enough period of time, notifying their workplace might be an attractive option.

Yeah. I'm with you on this one, how is it not metal, exactly?

Most nu metal songs lack riffs that are traditionally considered metal, and most of the other elements, like the drums, turntables and vocals, are not often considered metal either. The drums sound much more like funk played by a very angry animal (trust me, I've been playing drums 8 years), turntables are plainly not metal, and the vocals don't fit any of the established styles (Power Metal has the signature falsetto wail, Death Metal has its growls and gurgles, Black Metal has its shrieks, Thrash Metal has its shouts and barks...).

Take Freak On A Leash by Korn. The main riff is pretty much a dark-as-night hip-hop background riff, the drums are heavily syncopated but not very fast, and there's the bizarre rap/growl section. The chorus is much more hard rock than metal, as well, where most metal choruses typically have a new riff of fairly high complexity (see: Master of Puppets), hard rock choruses are often identified by simply repeatedly strumming the main chords of the chorus (not that this is a bad thing, see Highway To Hell).

If you wanted to make Freak On A Leash, let's say, Thrash Metal, you'd double the tempo, change the riff to have the same notes for the same amount of time, but alternate strummed at a high speed, replace the drums with tons of double bass and skank beats (look up the latter), and throw in a high number of new riffs. You'd also have to make the vocals aggressive throughout, instead of just in the choruses (in Freak On A Leash, the verses are quiet and frightened, while the choruses are more typical Nu Metal anger).

So, uh, how about them Giants? Which ones? ...Does it matter?

Nu Metal is a style of alternative metal though, it evolved differently than those kinds of metal, all of which came from Speed Metal. Nu Metal is more rooted in the sort of Grungy Metal that AIC gave us Also, look at other Nu Metal Bands like Disturbed or Slipknot, they don't really have a hip hop sound at all. Then again, one could argue nu metal isn't really a genre at all, considering almost none of the bands that are called that sound alike in any meaningful way. (Compare Linkin Park to, say, System of a Down.)

Sounds about right.

Oh, crap, sorry, I accidentally made the laconic one for Nu Metal instead of Nu-Metal. Do redirects work for laconic pages too?

Probably should get working on that essay now...

This sounds like an interesting piece of speculation, but I have to ask, what trope could we associate with this question to incorporate it into the article?

We do have a nu-metal topic in the forums, but it hasn't been touched in months.

Me, I think that with the audiences for Jane's Addiction, Helmet, Living Colour, Alice In Chains and Faith No More, nu-metal could have easily taken off with or without Limp Bizkit. In fact, the genre might have been better without them (more guitar solos, emotional depth and pancultural experimentalism).

It's not as if other metal genres didn't already have retarded bands. At least Limp Bizkit falls into the same line of fun retarded music as Motley Crue (Hair Metal) and Red Hot Chili Peppers (Funk Metal).

Marilyn Manson are not a nu-metal band, though they've often been lumped in with the genre. Static-X are a bit of a grey area when it comes to their status as nu-metal. Both bands qualify as Industrial Metal, so it's possible that they were included on the soundtrack as representatives of that genre as opposed to nu-metal.

I feel weird actually debating about Kabbage Boy's genre, not only because of my distaste for genre wars but because they're a fictional band; however, there are several pointers to their genre, such as the opening Korn-esque riff of the song, the hip-hop influences, the turntable scratching  ^*

, the "Metal is dead" comment brought up in the scene while they're playing, the band referring to themselves as metal right before they start playing, the actual name of the band (a vegetable that begins with C, turned into the band's name by replacing the 'C' with a 'K')... those are the reasons I can think of off the top of my head.

Edited by Lordnecronus last.fm | RYM

The whole joke was that they were a pop band that refers to itself as a metal band even though they're clearly not. The opening riff of their song doesn't sound anything like Korn. Not all nu metal bands have hip hop influences or turntables, and a lot of bands with turntables and hip hop influences are not nu metal, and misspelled names are not a typical trait of nu metal bands, even though some famous bands have misspelled names.

Even if Kabbage Boy is solely a mockery of Linkin Park, that band isn't really nu metal or metal at all. They're basically a boy band with guitars, turntables and a rapper; there's a book that calls them a "nu metal boy band". That might be kind of a controversial statement, but most metal fans tend to agree that actual nu metal bands have at least some metal influences, even if the bands are not solely metal. I'm not going to press this issue, though, since I don't care if Linkin Park is listed.

The main thing, though, is that Kabbage Boy is a fictional band, so there's really no point to having it mixed in with real bands. That wasn't even the joke in the first place.

The whole term 'nu metal' is kind of a grey area, actually, but Marilyn Manson and Static-X have been called nu metal.

Edited by Juggalotus

Does Kabbage Boy have a real song? If it does, then it doesn't matter if it's fictional. Fictional bands that produce real music can be placed into genres just like everyone else.

And I think the other band Lordnecrosis was thinking of was Korn. That band is not pop, whatever it is.

There is a fine line between recklessness and courage — Paul McCartney

Kabbage Boy have one real song that appears, at least partially, in the opening scene of Brutal Legend. One song may not be a good justification for them being here, but it's a real song nevertheless.

Linkin Park do seem to be the main target of the parody (eg. boy band with guitars and rapping), with Korn being the target of the name "Kabbage Boy". Both are fairly uncontroversial entries in the genre (though, honestly, Linkin Park aren't as nu-metal as people say, so I kind-of agree with you there), so that's why I see Kabbage Boy as a parody of nu-metal.

Final note, not actually related to the discussion:

It's probably different for everyone, but the way I see it, bands have to either be influenced by hip-hop or other nu-metal bands (an indirect hip-hop influence) in order to qualify as part of the genre. Of course, as you said, having hip-hop influences doesn't make you nu-metal either (Rage Against the Machine being the most prominent example of this).

last.fm | RYM

Here's the song. Feel free to judge.

It has bad rapping, turn-tabling, repetitive riffs and angsty, awkward lyrics. Again, take from that what you will.

Edited by Alucard

Also, Linkin Park never "gained" critical approval. They were never liked by critics.

You're wrong about Linkin Park  ^*

; and if you want to discuss Deftones' status as a nu metal band, then head here and debate it on the talk page.

last.fm | RYM

When have Linkin Park ever received any critical approval, ever? Their reviews are worse than Limp Bizkit's.

Linkin Park has performed at the Grammys. And won at least one. Not quite critical approval, given the kinds of things the Grammys have approved, but not chopped liver either.

There is a fine line between recklessness and courage — Paul McCartney

So, if Deftones are considered a nu-metal band because of their earlier material, then can I put Disturbed back on the list?

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt." - Some guy with a snazzy hat.

EDIT: I just noticed Disturbed were on the list, So Yeah.

Overall, I have nothing against either band being on the list; I first removed them because they were "controversial" additions. I'd have no objection to the anon adding either band back to the list if the anon wasn't doing it in such an obnoxious way, ie vandalising the page to fit their own POV.

Edited by Lordnecronus last.fm | RYM

Then what about System of a Down? Can I put them on the list or should I just keep my fire extinguisher ready?

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt." - Some guy with a snazzy hat.

System of a Down are... tricky. While Disturbed and Deftones have material that is pretty unambiguously nu-metal, SOAD are a lot harder to classify. I feel it's best if we leave them off the list for now.

last.fm | RYM

SOAD were never nu metal.

@Juggalotus: I personally agree with you, but it's hard to deny the amount of times they've been lumped in with the genre. Doesn't make them part of the genre, of course - just look at how many times Slayer have been called death metal. Anyway, no need to worry - SOAD aren't going back on the list anytime soon.

Edited by Lordnecronus last.fm | RYM

Stop vandalising the page.

Also, what specific "inaccuracies" are you talking about? Have you got a good argument for whether they count as such?

Edited by Lordnecronus last.fm | RYM

I'm not the above editor, but I should state that the current description of nu metal doesn't apply all points of view.

We shouldn't treat metalheads' perception of a genre as fact. They're not particularly on the ball in regards to anything. And Deftones is nu-metal.

Judging from your edits, Lordnecronus, you're clearly vandalizing the page here.

Edited by 192.225.128.3

So, me creating the page in the first place was vandalism?

When I first created the page, Deftones were on the list with "Your Mileage May Vary" by their name. I later removed them, along with System of a Down and Disturbed (who also had "YMMV" by their names), because they were controversial additions to the list; As You Know, the page specifically states that you should only add bands to the list if they're uncontroversially nu-metal.

Anyway, judging from your edits, it seems you have an issue with Kittie and Mushroomhead being on the list. What is your own argument for their removal? I'll consider it as long as you don't try and accuse me of vandalism.

EDIT: As a side note, I'd like to ask: why are you using different IP addresses? Do your old ones keep getting blocked?

Edited by Lordnecronus last.fm | RYM

I'm not 128.227.2.161, and it's ridiculously insulting for you to accuse everyone who edits differently from you of being the same person.

Of course you'd say that. Now, back up your argument and stop repeating your ad hominem attacks.

Edited by Lordnecronus last.fm | RYM